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How realistic is lock picking?

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uperkurk

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Post Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:04 pm

Re: How realistic is lock picking?

piotr wrote:
uperkurk wrote:
Neilau wrote:
uperkurk wrote: and it just isn't possible, even for a professional to pick this lock without having it at the
It's not a troll / flame post at all. It's just when I watch videos of people lock picking they have it in a vice at the perfect angle, even having it upside down sometimes. Also in the UK 90% of homes use this type of lock it's VERY common.


Some pickers pick with the lock at 180-degrees, i.e. "straight" . There is no "upside-down", Euro cylinders are mounted differently in different parts of the world. In Australia they are often installed "upside-down". But none of these things really matter, the technique doesn't change. Any of the best pickers on this forum can pick a cylinder like the one you posted in any orientation.

The lock that you posted is is just an ordinary 6-pin tumbler lock with at worst some spool pins. That is classed at best as an intermediate difficulty lock from a picking point of view. AFAIK there is absolutely nothing remarkable about it that would make it difficult to pick, i.e. it doesn't have a second shear-line, it most likely doesn't have counter-milling and serrated driver pins, it doesn't have rotating pins and a side-bar, it is just a plain vanilla Euro-cylinder so we don't really understand your confidence in it. An American 5200 padlock is harder to pick than that because it has serrated pins and there are many people here that pick an American 5200 padlock in around 60 seconds. Here is a video of ImSchatten360 picking an American 5200 (with serrated driver and key pins) in under 30 seconds:


The reason why I had faith in it is because I've read that these types of locks have spools and are just difficult to pick. That lock I linked was on sale for £45 so not what I would call a cheap lock exactly... Could you show me an example of what you would call a high security door lock for your house... The cheaper houses in the UK have uPVC doors so they use the common euro cylinder but some expensive houses might use lever locks or something different.
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scudo

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Post Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:23 pm

Re: How realistic is lock picking?

The lock that you posted is is just an ordinary 6-pin tumbler lock

Is it not just a 4 pin going by the indentations on the top of the lock.
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piotr

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Post Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:32 pm

Re: How realistic is lock picking?

scudo wrote:Is it not just a 4 pin going by the indentations on the top of the lock.


I think the Yale Euros are 6-pin. The pin related holes would be on the other side, i.e. on the bible side of the cylinder. Those four indentations are something else because they don't start at the end of the cylinder. If they marked where the pins were inserted it would mean that the key would have about 3/4 " dead space after the shoulder. That would be an odd key. I don't have one of those cylinders so I am uncertain about the pinning.
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uperkurk

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Post Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:37 pm

Re: How realistic is lock picking?

scudo wrote:
The lock that you posted is is just an ordinary 6-pin tumbler lock

Is it not just a 4 pin going by the indentations on the top of the lock.


It's a £45 lock mate I highly doubt it had only 4 pins. Most likely 6 or 7 pins
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scudo

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Post Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:45 pm

Re: How realistic is lock picking?

This maybe the one The indentations maybe to do with the strengthening bar....

The Yale AS Platinum Series Euro Profile cylinder has been developed to provide resistance against known cylinder attack methods.

The AS Platinum series offers the highest level of British Kitemarked TS007:2012 3 star security and has been tested to the British Standard BS EN1303:2005. The cylinder is Kitemark and Secured by Design approved.

AS Platinum Series cylinders have been developed with a number of advanced features to protect against the most determined attack.

Snap-Off front section of the cylinder if attacked will sacrificially come away which will then give the intruder less of the cylinder attack.
Hardened Grip-Deflectors which make gripping the rest of the cylinder difficult.
Hardened Reinforced Bar designed not to snap, but to flex in a way that will defeat the vast majority of intruders.
Interlocking Cam with strengthening bar provides additional protection and strength to the cylinder.
Anti-drill protection
Anti-bump protection
Anti-screw protection
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piotr

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Post Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:24 pm

Re: How realistic is lock picking?

uperkurk wrote:Could you show me an example of what you would call a high security door lock for your house... The cheaper houses in the UK have uPVC doors so they use the common euro cylinder but some expensive houses might use lever locks or something different.


Something like the Abloy Protec2 is a high security lock that is available in Euro cylinder format:

Image

See http://www.abloy.co.uk/en/abloy/abloy-c ... OY-Protec/

This is not to say that Abloy Protec2 and Abloy Novel are not pickable but they are not pickable with standard tools and even with specialised tools they would probably take longer than 30 seconds to open. That being the case a burglar will be unlikely to try and pick it open.

Take a look at the xeo's videos to see other high security locks: http://www.youtube.com/user/xeotech1?feature=watch

Many of these locks are deemed "high security" because they have multiple locking mechanisms within the same cylinder. The ASSA Twin Combi ,for example, has the usual shearline and it is enhanced with counter-milling and spool driver pins--that alone is more than what most locks have. But in addition to that it has a side-bar, i.e. a retractable projection that extends out the side of the plug. The sidebar will retract only if an additional set of pins are correctly raised and rotated. So you really have two locks in one. This too can be picked but it will necessarily take longer than your 6-pin yale because it is really two (tough) locks in one.

Here is a video of xeo picking it "blind", i.e. without having seen the key or having opened the lock before:



For pictures of the innards see here: http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/ASSA_Twin_Combi

The reason that this lock takes comparative "long" to pick is because it contains two locking mechanisms; that is one method lock manufacturers use to make locks pick resistant. But this is one of the toughest locks out there--your Yale 6-pin is easy compared to this.

As Squelchtone posted, it is entirely probable that your 6-pin Yale can be raked open in 5-seconds or it can be tapped open with an electric pick gun in about 5-seconds; that is not possible with something like the ASSA Twin Combi. Even if the shearline is cleared--which is improbable--the rake or pick gun will not be able to lift and rotate the finger pins that operate the sidebar.

Hope this helps.
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rai

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Post Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:41 pm

Re: How realistic is lock picking?

Movies usually have a script, lines for actors, to explain a story. People pay to see the actors do a good job of telling that story, to open a door by picking is something that is not central to the story or the characters, its just some panache that was thrown in to tell the audience that the protagonist or the antagonist is unusually adept with locks, they almost never say how that came about.
No audience is going to sit through to much spinning of the dial to open the safe, you only show the hand and the dial spin to suggest that there are internal parts in the lock, (for movies those parts are removed, I once took the locking mech out of a vault so an actor could spin the dial and without fail open that vault door, long ago, when I worked for a sanfrancisco locksmith.
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Squelchtone

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Post Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:48 pm

Re: How realistic is lock picking?

uperkurk wrote: Also in the UK 90% of homes use this type of lock it's VERY common.


I think I understand your concern. You dont want to believe that all the things on youtube are true, so you're hoping we tell you that all of those videos and everything you see on tv is bullocks because if it were true then that would burst the bubble most people in society have that the locks on their doors actually offer them some level of protection. Yale is a good company, and yes, it is better than not having a lock on your door, but it is pickable, by locksmiths, hobbysists, and some bad guys as well. If it were not pickable, it would cost 200 pounds and be called Abloy Protec, but that doesnt mean someone still cant snap even the 200 pound (sorry dont have the L on my keyboard only the $ sign) lock. It is always going to be a cat and mouse game with lock makers and bad guys.

So we hate to ruin the public's sense of security, but a lot of us try to educate people to let them know that just because their local lockie or stockist said a lock has 6 pins and it is pick proof, doesn't mean things are always as advertised.

Security in layers is always a good idea, if you are asking about this topic because you may be upgrading your home locks, something like an alarm system and CCTV are all good additions to let the bad guy know, he should move along and try the next house and leave yours alone. Sometimes that strategy works out, but sometimes you still get burgled.

good luck,
Squelchtone
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piotr

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Post Sat Feb 15, 2014 4:00 pm

Re: How realistic is lock picking?

Good advice from Squelchtone.

And of course the last layer of home security is home contents insurance in case all of your steps to deter burglars fail.
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xeo

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Post Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:02 pm

Re: How realistic is lock picking?

uperkurk wrote:I see videos on youtube of people lock picking padlocks and stuff but when it comes to a proper house lock, like in the UK the most common house lock is Image and it just isn't possible, even for a professional to pick this lock without having it at the perfect angle in a vice and even then it takes 5 minutes. Trying to do this while kneeling down at someones front door just seems highly unlikely.


Why is this so hard to believe? It is possible and people can do it and have done it. I can do it, along with many other members of this forum. Yes, it won't always take 10 seconds, however it may. It may take 10 seconds to 10 minutes depending on several factors such as lock age, weather conditions, keyway, bitting, security pins, etc. That is all there really is to say about it. If you want to stop someone from kneeling down at your front door and picking your front door lock then buy an Abloy Protec 2. Now you have to worry about someone kicking in your door, your windows, etc. As Squelchtone and others have said security is ALWAYS about multiple layers and plugging your security holes. A balanced and dynamic approach is always the best (alarms, sensors, window security film, reinforced door frames, motion detectors, motion lights, dogs, firearms, razorwire, claymore mines on your front lawn, etc).
Image
The code is hidden in the tumblers. One position opens the lock, another position opens one of these doors...
http://www.youtube.com/xeotech1

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UnlockD

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Post Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:28 pm

Re: How realistic is lock picking?

I have walked up to customers doors and picked them in 10 seconds and I'm no expert. So yes, in some situations it is realistic. Depends on the lock.
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Deadlock

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Post Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:35 pm

Re: How realistic is lock picking?

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Joe Momma

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Post Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:14 pm

Re: How realistic is lock picking?

jharveee wrote:I Roll my eyes every time I See Zeva pick a lock in 2 Seconds.


Noms Zeva :drool:

I bet Zeva can do it, a lock with only 1 set of pins is easy :mrgreen:
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huxleypig

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Post Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:59 am

Re: How realistic is lock picking?

I have that exact Yale lock - it is the AS range and is indeed £45 from B&Q.

It is actually a little better than most locks in the uk (the average) but I have to stress that it is not a hard lock to pick at all, I open mine in an average of 45 seconds and that would go for a call out too.
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