24 part video course on lockpicking

[piotr]

piotr: if all this is just because you're concerned that nobody on LP101 is allowed to criticize Schuyler, then let me try to help put your fears to rest... there's no policy or culture that prevents exactly the same complaints being posted on LP101 about Schuyler's Kickstarter project, and a quick Google search brings up several threads. Here's one from back in January/February, for example.

If there's more that should have been said in that thread, or any of the others, then you should be posting your concers there yourself (you say you have an LP101 account), rather than blaming other people for not posting exactly the right criticisms for you.

Why are you reading my posts?

[the lockpickkid]

Umm? Can we lock this already? Anyone, Elbow...... are ya there??? MBI.......anyone there?????

[verz]

Send this thread to the advanced section..

oh wrong forum,

[PickForge]

I certainly forgive Schuyler Towne, $75 over a lifetime is not that much, even though the lock pick set was suppose to be my birthday present that year. I assure you that we have all done stupid things in our lives, am still paying for mine. I have gotten a lot of enjoyment from Schuyler Towne's articles over the years. Life is to short to worry about the $75. Sorry I just had to add my 2 cents.

this is well said, Schuyler messed up, it was a big mistake and it seems like a few of you feel like he attacked you personally. he but in all seriousness kickstarter is not a store like it has been said many times, when you donate to a project thats all it is, a donation with the incentive that if the "project" "company" whatever gets funded and running you will get your prize. this didn't happen, does that make Schuyler a con artist/thief/whatever? no I dont think so, I think he just got in over his head and had too much of an ego to let go when it was spiraling out of control.

I think this crap needs to be put to bed with in the lock sport community. I dont know Schuyler but what I do know is the knowledge he spread and the effort he put in to the community before the kick starter bullshit was awesome, I learned a lot from him and I'm sure a lot of others here did as well.

I do check up on the kick start project every once in a while and it does seem like the guys handling it now are getting shit taken care of, and according to the last post it sounds like Schuyler is also trying to repay in a way for the mistakes he made "Schuyler continues to schedule paid appearances to pay towards the manufacturing of sets, along with proceeds from his day job." hopefully sets will be in the mail within the next couple of months, maybe sooner. honestly I dont care, it was a risk I took funding a project on the internet.

just my .02

[xeo]

Here, take this!

t_lkr_red.png

[GWiens2001]

Here, take this!

t_lkr_red.png

Good one, Xeo.

[elbowmacaroni]

Well if I am going to be threatened with being banned for speaking my mind then I would at the least like a right of reply.

Quite fairly so...

Piotr, I believe your accusations have crossed a line.
You are looking at lp101 from a perspective that is largely from the outside.
Based on that perspective, you seem to be assuming a certain intent on the part of those who use and run the site.
I believe your assumption to be largely incorrect.

"[L]argely" but not entirely incorrect, i.e. you are implicitly conceding that there is an element of truth to my posts.

Indeed he was. I would say that is clear by his choice of words. Which parts he is in agreement with I think is where the difference of opinion seems to have arisen from.

I can tell you from that inside perspective, that I see no evidence in the moderator forum or any of the phpbb logs of any coverup in regards to Schuyler and his Kickstarter. There are no deleted threads, no gag orders.

It was never my intention to state or even imply that there was an active conspiracy in place. Further, there need not be for the sake of the truth of my central claims. The culture of lp101 was established in the first year of that forum's operation (and I have been following it since then) and since that time every action of moderation and administration has been -- more or less -- in effect to defend and reproduce that culture (which was established by the owner). Many of the people that contributed to the jaundiced culture of lp101 are not even active any more but their spirit continues in the behaviour and attitude of moderators, administrators and longtime members. Hence my continued use of the terms culture in relation to lp101.

It really came off that way in this and in the last thread that was hijacked and went this direction. That said, as I suggested perhaps aside from back when the posts that McGuyver googled up on lp101 about towne (yes, I am not capitalizing his name on purpose...) the matter is either considered put to rest there or perhaps the butt-hurt is just too much to continue to discuss it there... I don't honestly know, but, I'd bet on the latter personally. Most certainly there is a different culture there, and we are not seeking to emulate that as that is part of why I wound up here originally as a mere user. I hold no grudge against the site as a whole though, it's just different there.

It's a giant black mark on a group of people who are already viewed askance by society at large.

Indeed and since lp101 was Towne's main platform the management of lp101 should take a formal position on him. At the least, Towne should have his membership status set to "untrustworthy"/"disreputable" or whatever the appropriate lp101 designation of that happens to be.

Perhaps they should. At least there was discussion of it there at one time. And please only use google to search their site as their site search has been broken for many years and is highly unreliable.

As far as I can recall, there has been no public statement on lp101 disavowing Schuyler and his Kickstarter.
Just as if you had a close relative who had been accused or convicted of some heinous crime, I imagine you'd be embarrassed about it too, and probably avoid the subject.

I don't think that is good enough. When Towne crawls back out from under the rock that he is currently hiding under, amongst the first places he will return to is lp101 to test the water. The option for lp101 management will then be the same as the which Romstar presented after his first round of fucking over members. Why not pre-empt that move and prevent any further exploitation of the community? This would certainly demonstrate the good-faith that you are suggesting exists.

You're probably correct that he will test the waters there first, and one can only hope that those who he has IMHO wronged will lash out very harshly and force management's hand there. Also, the culture over there is slowly changing and change doesn't always come easy so give that some time and you may well be surprised by what you find... Or maybe it'll just fall back, I don't have a crystal ball to tell me what will happen. I also agree that there should be an official stance and perhaps even a ban, but it's not my site to do that.

Like it or not, there will always be fans who will defend Schuyler and his intentions, but I don't believe it's an organized coverup.

Indeed, and that is why people like me and the others that have criticised Towne should be free to express their opinion.
Allowing only posts that praise Towne and threatening punishment of anyone that makes a critical post is tantamount to propaganda.

The issue is not that you're expressing your opinion, it is the wanton vitriol and attacking of lp101 and individuals that is the issue. As you know, I am certainly one to express my opinions in no uncertain terms.

Just my $0.02, but I'm tired of seeing every thread that could possibly be related to LP101 in some vague way turned into a bunch of unprovoked, vitriol-filled posts and personal attacks from one particular member here.

Then just don't read my posts. Better yet why not just stay at lp101 and add to your voluminous posting history there. You have 136 posts on keypicking.com and I reviewed all of them. Most of them are one or two line "affirmatory" posts. None as far as I can see contain substantive content. Where the post isn't merely the expression of an affirmation or a negation it is typically vestigial. That is to say, you have virtually no effort invested in this forum yet you see fit to try and influence its content and policy.

This was unnecessary...

Wow... wow... wow...

Holy shit even... Piotr calm down bro. It's pointless at this juncture to keep the topic of Shyster Towne alive, everyone knows what happened.

No it isn't pointless. There will come a time when Towne will seek to re-launch himself and it is important that there be a clear record and analysis of his malfeasance. Unless you are suggesting that Schuyler be given two rounds to exploit the community like Romstar did on lp101 then Towne's dirty deeds should be mentioned at every opportunity.

It's been covered, hashed over, rehashed over, recycled, and at this point it is beating a dead horse. Also, and I mentioned this already, romstar fucked over a bunch of people here too, and it's all there for everyone to see as well. See my last comment just above regarding him attempting to re-establish himself... I will tell you one thing, as far as I am concerned he's not welcome here.

Piotr, you've been around here for a while now and you're a decent guy, but if you keep going on tirades about this, and especially about lp101 and some conspiracy and attacking people there or here personally, then we will have to take some kind of action to be determined upon such an event occurring.

As I've already tried to explain I neither stated nor even meant to imply that there was some active conspiracy. If I were to characterise the problem (as I see it) in terms of conspiracy, it would be a conspiracy of acquiescence.

Okay, thanks for the clarification as it has sounded as if there was some grand conspiracy in your prior posts on the matter. Again, see my previous comments in this post in regards to that. Also, if you want to express your opinion of towne, that in and of itself is fine. Just don't start attacking everyone who isn't him. HE is the TRUE problem. It is HIS fault. He is the one who committed the malfeasance (in both your words above, and mine as well in a post last night.) It is HIM that deserves the hostility, noone else. I understand that you feel the culture there is what allowed that to happen. However, I would posit that he was thought of by many, not just there to be some great fantastic guy or some shit. I also understand that many resent the fact that he had gained the recognition that he did prior to the kickstarter shitpile and far more sadly afterward due to his stated by numerous folks (can't remember who exactly now) lack of skills. The fairly obvious threat of some sort of action being taken whether it be banning or otherwise was intended to reign this shitstorm in and not only directed at you. Yes, the implication there is that it was also pointed at you as well as others, and that would be a correct reading. I don't want to ban you, personally, I like you and think you're a good guy. But this keeps raising it's head, and it really needs to stop. No posts are going to be deleted, it is all going to remain out there for everyone to see. Warning made. Horse long dead, let's stop bashing on the gushy, mushy pulpy mess that is all that remains. If you really feel the need to bash HIM make your own post, or if responding to another's post, keep it plain and simple and not so raging.

As much as his Kickstarter screwup blackened the image of locksports I believe that the vitriolic attacks and exaggerations show too many members of the locksport community to be mean spirited petty assholes.

If you are genuinely concerned with the image of "locksport" then you should welcome the hostility towards Towne (and Romstar). The hostility and vitriol is a demonstration of the recognition of a moral transgression. What would profoundly worry me is acquiesence and the acquiesence on lp101 is indeed disturbing.

Many feel that Towne's celebrity and popularity is illegitimate, that he is not a talented lockpicker and that his reputation is largely the result of luck rather than any real talent. Those that are more talented than Towne that remain in obscurity will naturally feel this way. The closest analogy that comes to mind is corporate career where the genuinely talented is overlooked for a promotion that goes to the office sycophant. I believe that captures the sentiment of the senior members that have ridiculed and castigated Towne. Note that this opinion will only ever be expressed here -- even though it is fair comment and couldn't in anyway be construed as defamaory -- because of the culture that pervades lp101. It is instructive to ask "why is that so?" I would suggest that it is not permitted on lp101 to state that the emperor has no clothes. This injunction doesn't take the form of an explicit directive. Rather it is suggested, hinted at and implied. That is to say, it is a cultural feature of lp101.

Dude, I really think it would be good to post a thread of warning over there given your feelings, but I would be careful about how I worded it and attack the real problem towne HIMSELF.


Now please read this last paragraph fully before getting pissed. I am locking this thread. HOWEVER, if you reply to me in a PM and you wish it to be placed into this thread I will do so. I don't want you to think that you are being shut off here... this thread just needs to come to a conclusion.