24 part video course on lockpicking

[Riyame]

Play nice everybody. Things are getting close to the line.

[the lockpickkid]

OK, guys, I am a member of both places I have had my problems both here and there, but I have noticed in the past couple years that the members of both forums have become alot closer than before, sometimes there was badmouthing of another forum here, and there sometimes as well, I have been guilty of doing this too. A post above this mentioned something about not caring for the membership and staff at lp101, thats sad, because now more than ever most people here are members there too, also as you guys notice, Squelchtone is here as a valuable member, has done nothing to wrong our site and he is from there, now here too. I think we should just drop the whole kickstart conversation, because we all know what happened and all have an opinion and we are all not going to agree with one another all the time. Happy Holidays guys.

[MacGyver101]

Just my $0.02, but I'm tired of seeing every thread that could possibly be related to LP101 in some vague way turned into a bunch of unprovoked, vitriol-filled posts and personal attacks from one particular member here.

Keypicking has a rule (Rule #10 in our short list of rules that we've all agreed to) that says that posting unfavourable comments about other lockpicking boards is not acceptable. My understanding is that it was put in place because we wanted people to focus on talking about locks and lockpicking, in order to build up the community here, rather than spending a lot of energy on what ends up in shouting matches.

I'm a member of both forums, but I'm not particularly interested in comparing them: I want to come here and read and participate in discussions about locks.

[monraet]

I certainly forgive Schuyler Towne, $75 over a lifetime is not that much, even though the lock pick set was suppose to be my birthday present that year. I assure you that we have all done stupid things in our lives, am still paying for mine. I have gotten a lot of enjoyment from Schuyler Towne's articles over the years. Life is to short to worry about the $75. Sorry I just had to add my 2 cents.

[xeo]

Wow guys chill out.

I didn't mean to start a big shitstorm of drama. I was simply stating my opinion (and fact) in a humorous manor. No need to rip at each other's throats!

[easy-e]

The video's seem interesting. I might watch some of them.

As far as competing forums go, this is nothing serious. I've been an admin on a forum for a while where there are actual DDoS attacks, huge troll raids, lots of drama, and general bitterness between similar forums. I've always encouraged everyone to have multiple "passports" and to be members everywhere. I am/was a member at a competing forum until I got permabanned for no reason. I think I was arguing about something or they just banned me for the lulz. I recently joined this forum and some other lockpicking forums/sites. I tend to have one "home forum" but frequent lots of others because every place is different and has it's own advantages/disadvantages. It's one thing to lurk and other to contribute. I have lurked a lot in the past and I hate when people say "I've been lurking for x number of years and finally decided to join" but I'm guilty of it too.

On a personal note I was 1 day late finding out about that Kickstarter and would have probably bought in. I saw a recent update that said they were going to start an online store to sell the remaining locks and shirts. I would buy some to support the generous people who have been working hard and using their own money to satisfy all of the backers. The moral of the story should be that there are a some very wonderful people out there who are willing to support and help a friend in need even if they messed up really badly.

[MBI]

Over the years I've used all the major lock forums as sources of information, some of which are no longer around. There have been bitter rivalries between some of the sites, involving flaming wars, hacker attacks, spam floods, botnets, etc. I know of two lockpicking forums that were completely taken offline by members of "rival" forums, and those turned out to be permanent takedowns since the owners of those sites didn't have proper backups.

I ask everyone here, please don't be party to the start of another of those feuds.
There will always be a certain "us vs them" sentiment among some members, but it doesn't need to get nasty.

Piotr, I believe your accusations have crossed a line.
You are looking at lp101 from a perspective that is largely from the outside.
Based on that perspective, you seem to be assuming a certain intent on the part of those who use and run the site.
I believe your assumption to be largely incorrect.

Despite being an owner of this site, several months ago they asked me to be a moderator on lp101. Yes, I have personal bias, but I guess they felt I'm trustworthy enough not to abuse that level of access there. I can tell you from that inside perspective, that I see no evidence in the moderator forum or any of the phpbb logs of any coverup in regards to Schuyler and his Kickstarter. There are no deleted threads, no gag orders.

The fact is, Schuyler has become something of an embarrassment to all of us. I can't see into his mind so I don't know what his intent was or is in regard to the Kickstarter. But I can see what happened, and it makes the hobby of lockpicking look bad, and by extension, all of us.

I was friends with Schuyler for a long time, worked on NDE Magazine with him, but he hasn't returned a single email or phone call of mine since his Kickstarter went south. At first, I defended him when the subject came up. I never dreamt for a minute that he'd deliberately scam anyone. Now though, while I don't know if his actions were premeditated or not, I'm just ashamed of the whole affair. It's a giant black mark on a group of people who are already viewed askance by society at large.

As far as I can recall, there has been no public statement on lp101 disavowing Schuyler and his Kickstarter.
Just as if you had a close relative who had been accused or convicted of some heinous crime, I imagine you'd be embarrassed about it too, and probably avoid the subject.

Like it or not, there will always be fans who will defend Schuyler and his intentions, but I don't believe it's an organized coverup.
I've sometimes wondered if something like that happened with anyone from this forum if there would be people who blindly jump to their defense in the same way.

[elbowmacaroni]

Wow... wow... wow...

Holy shit even... Piotr calm down bro. It's pointless at this juncture to keep the topic of Shyster Towne alive, everyone knows what happened. Many here and over at lp101 were burned as well. Perhaps the lack of vocalism over there about the topic is just due to plain old butt-hurt over being burned by someone they trusted and many looked up to (due to NDE et.al.) When it was all going down, it was a VERY hot topic here, and as such, there are warning signs to future readers abound.

There is no need to go attacking lp101, I can't see what would be in their interest to organize some grand conspiracy anyway. Even more to the point, Squelchtone (holy shit I actually spelled out his full handle...woah!) raised a number of good points. In addition, please let me remind you that Romstar was one of the original site admins HERE (shudder.) He is well roundly disliked by all and banned both here and there.

And as far as the kickstarter was concerned, I don't know man... I just didn't think that some punk ass kid spinning out yet another line of the same picks everyone else already makes was worth putting money toward anyway. As it turned out, my stinginess paid off for me. I do feel for those who lost money to him. But this long afterward, it just doesn't do any good for the locksport community as a whole to keep bringing it up at every turn. Not to mention that (and perhaps oddly enough) there has been a bit of cooperation between our sites in the regard of the forwarding of locksport as a whole and in the sharing of information. This is something that I think is a good thing given the rivalry of the past real, imagined or both as the individual cases my be. I think it is fairly well known there is a certain person on the staff over there, who while they've never personally done me any wrong, they way that person treats others is just fucking damned shameful. However, I also hear that he's not around so much anymore. I don't know either way honestly to a certainty as I don't go there as often as I once did. However, I still do from time to time to check out various things that people have brought up. Both of our sites exist to further locksport and not to fight each other. MacGyver brought up a good point in mentioning rule #10. It is one thing to say, gee they suck and I don't like them and a completely another to go and accuse both wholesale and individually people of some sort of nefarious wrong-doing or coverup. There is also an immense amount of cross-over in our memberships, so to accuse the membership there as a body is patently absurd and is attacking our own membership here.

Piotr, you've been around here for a while now and you're a decent guy, but if you keep going on tirades about this, and especially about lp101 and some conspiracy and attacking people there or here personally, then we will have to take some kind of action to be determined upon such an event occurring. It is disruptive and non-productive to the ultimate goal picking sites in general and that is of the furthering of locksport and the sharing of knowledge. The later being the most important as without forums such as this, lp101 and others (yay for variety, I didn't use et.al. again...) would not occur. That is something scary to me as the free discussion of ideas and knowledge is something that I consider to important. Although there is the matter of copyright and other intellectual property that we have to avoid crossing a line on, which while I am not the biggest fan of current intellectual property laws as they stand, they are there and as such have to be respected. Yes, that is a side point to the matter at hand but very relevant to my immediate prior comment.

I hope that this can be put to bed once and for all.

-Elbow

[abroxis]

As the one who first posted the material I want to say a couple of things.

Many people enjoyed watching the videos. You may consider them clueless idiots but they feel they learned something useful.

Towne did a lot of work at the NDE magazine, talked at conferences , and did a lot of training sessions with a lot of people and many people appreciated what he gave to the locksport community.

YES, he really screwed up with Kickstarter but to totally ignore a lot of the good work he did before that seems unfair.

As much as his Kickstarter screwup blackened the image of locksports I believe that the vitriolic attacks and exaggerations show too many members of the locksport community to be mean spirited petty assholes.

Being foolish and totally ignorant about business , handling large sums of money responsibility and the fabrication of lock picks does not make Towne a crook out to scam every one. It makes him a bad businessman and ignorant . Was he ever charged with fraud? Its not uncommon that venture capital includes a provision for some personal living expenses. Does Kickstarter specifically prohibit doing this.

I wonder if some of the comments made about Towne may even been actionable and I hope this site or members doesn't get sued .

A lot of lawyers might take cases like this on spec.

Hey he might be able to pay back one or two people who lost money.

[darkhorse]

after watching this thread from a distance I am a little dissapointed at the way members are having a go at each other and other forums...As a mod on another lock forum over the pond I would find it unacceptable for this behaviour to flourish....I dont know this tyler bloke but do know from comments that he has a lot to answer for...My question would be for the man himself to be invited to fight his own corner publicly instead of good members fighting each other..The quality of membership on here is globally renown so please respect each other and the fantastic work you all do as a whole....
...rant over and best wishes

[elbowmacaroni]

Answres inline....

As the one who first posted the material I want to say a couple of things.

Many people enjoyed watching the videos. You may consider them clueless idiots but they feel they learned something useful.

Yup, I'm sure they did and that there were valuable contributions within them. Although one does have to have a chuckle at the name of vid# 11..... just sayin.... (Please do not use that as more fodder to fan the flames... it's just funny given the circumstances. As such will be met with repercussions appropriate to the degree of the abuse.)


Towne did a lot of work at the NDE magazine, talked at conferences , and did a lot of training sessions with a lot of people and many people appreciated what he gave to the locksport community.

Yes, he did, no doubt about it.


YES, he really screwed up with Kickstarter but to totally ignore a lot of the good work he did before that seems unfair.

As much as his Kickstarter screwup blackened the image of locksports I believe that the vitriolic attacks and exaggerations show too many members of the locksport community to be mean spirited petty assholes.

Being foolish and totally ignorant about business , handling large sums of money responsibility and the fabrication of lock picks does not make Towne a crook out to scam every one. It makes him a bad businessman and ignorant . Was he ever charged with fraud? Its not uncommon that venture capital includes a provision for some personal living expenses. Does Kickstarter specifically prohibit doing this.

Like I said about why I didn't invest... some kid being handed a ton of cash... not always the best mix. Also, if noone brought it to the attention of the proper authorities or perhaps if the kickstarter donation agreement precluded such, then it would be clear as to why not.

I wonder if some of the comments made about Towne may even been actionable and I hope this site or members doesn't get sued .

Unlikely as all the ones specifically about him have at least some truth in them and truth is the ultimat defense against libel/slander suits.

A lot of lawyers might take cases like this on spec.

Hey he might be able to pay back one or two people who lost money.

It looks like it is a 3rd party that is doing that in lieu of him. Clearly decent people who feel for those who were for all intents and purposes ripped off, regardless of original intent. The fact is that it happened.

[elbowmacaroni]

after watching this thread from a distance I am a little dissapointed at the way members are having a go at each other and other forums...As a mod on another lock forum over the pond I would find it unacceptable for this behaviour to flourish....I dont know this tyler bloke but do know from comments that he has a lot to answer for...My question would be for the man himself to be invited to fight his own corner publicly instead of good members fighting each other..The quality of membership on here is globally renown so please respect each other and the fantastic work you all do as a whole....
...rant over and best wishes

Agreed. It was a very bad situation for anyone who ponied up. Albeit, most who did it was a small sum. IMHO, IANAL, et.al. he had a duty to produce and not spend upon his own needs/wants. Personally I would consider what he did to be plain and simply malfeasance. And so you know and others as well, afaik he has been invited to defend himself and doesn't. Aside from some open letter-ish thing where he laid out a ton of crap that his actions (as subsequently discovered by some and shared) clearly quite contradict.

[piotr]

Well if I am going to be threatened with being banned for speaking my mind then I would at the least like a right of reply.

Piotr, I believe your accusations have crossed a line.
You are looking at lp101 from a perspective that is largely from the outside.
Based on that perspective, you seem to be assuming a certain intent on the part of those who use and run the site.
I believe your assumption to be largely incorrect.

"[L]argely" but not entirely incorrect, i.e. you are implicitly conceding that there is an element of truth to my posts.

I can tell you from that inside perspective, that I see no evidence in the moderator forum or any of the phpbb logs of any coverup in regards to Schuyler and his Kickstarter. There are no deleted threads, no gag orders.

It was never my intention to state or even imply that there was an active conspiracy in place. Further, there need not be for the sake of the truth of my central claims. The culture of lp101 was established in the first year of that forum's operation (and I have been following it since then) and since that time every action of moderation and administration has been -- more or less -- in effect to defend and reproduce that culture (which was established by the owner). Many of the people that contributed to the jaundiced culture of lp101 are not even active any more but their spirit continues in the behaviour and attitude of moderators, administrators and longtime members. Hence my continued use of the terms culture in relation to lp101.

It's a giant black mark on a group of people who are already viewed askance by society at large.

Indeed and since lp101 was Towne's main platform the management of lp101 should take a formal position on him. At the least, Towne should have his membership status set to "untrustworthy"/"disreputable" or whatever the appropriate lp101 designation of that happens to be.

As far as I can recall, there has been no public statement on lp101 disavowing Schuyler and his Kickstarter.
Just as if you had a close relative who had been accused or convicted of some heinous crime, I imagine you'd be embarrassed about it too, and probably avoid the subject.

I don't think that is good enough. When Towne crawls back out from under the rock that he is currently hiding under, amongst the first places he will return to is lp101 to test the water. The option for lp101 management will then be the same as the which Romstar presented after his first round of fucking over members. Why not pre-empt that move and prevent any further exploitation of the community? This would certainly demonstrate the good-faith that you are suggesting exists.

Like it or not, there will always be fans who will defend Schuyler and his intentions, but I don't believe it's an organized coverup.

Indeed, and that is why people like me and the others that have criticised Towne should be free to express their opinion.
Allowing only posts that praise Towne and threatening punishment of anyone that makes a critical post is tantamount to propaganda.

Just my $0.02, but I'm tired of seeing every thread that could possibly be related to LP101 in some vague way turned into a bunch of unprovoked, vitriol-filled posts and personal attacks from one particular member here.

Then just don't read my posts. Better yet why not just stay at lp101 and add to your voluminous posting history there. You have 136 posts on keypicking.com and I reviewed all of them. Most of them are one or two line "affirmatory" posts. None as far as I can see contain substantive content. Where the post isn't merely the expression of an affirmation or a negation it is typically vestigial. That is to say, you have virtually no effort invested in this forum yet you see fit to try and influence its content and policy.

Wow... wow... wow...

Holy shit even... Piotr calm down bro. It's pointless at this juncture to keep the topic of Shyster Towne alive, everyone knows what happened.

No it isn't pointless. There will come a time when Towne will seek to re-launch himself and it is important that there be a clear record and analysis of his malfeasance. Unless you are suggesting that Schuyler be given two rounds to exploit the community like Romstar did on lp101 then Towne's dirty deeds should be mentioned at every opportunity.

Piotr, you've been around here for a while now and you're a decent guy, but if you keep going on tirades about this, and especially about lp101 and some conspiracy and attacking people there or here personally, then we will have to take some kind of action to be determined upon such an event occurring.

As I've already tried to explain I neither stated nor even meant to imply that there was some active conspiracy. If I were to characterise the problem (as I see it) in terms of conspiracy, it would be a conspiracy of acquiescence.

As much as his Kickstarter screwup blackened the image of locksports I believe that the vitriolic attacks and exaggerations show too many members of the locksport community to be mean spirited petty assholes.

If you are genuinely concerned with the image of "locksport" then you should welcome the hostility towards Towne (and Romstar). The hostility and vitriol is a demonstration of the recognition of a moral transgression. What would profoundly worry me is acquiesence and the acquiesence on lp101 is indeed disturbing.

Many feel that Towne's celebrity and popularity is illegitimate, that he is not a talented lockpicker and that his reputation is largely the result of luck rather than any real talent. Those that are more talented than Towne that remain in obscurity will naturally feel this way. The closest analogy that comes to mind is corporate career where the genuinely talented is overlooked for a promotion that goes to the office sycophant. I believe that captures the sentiment of the senior members that have ridiculed and castigated Towne. Note that this opinion will only ever be expressed here -- even though it is fair comment and couldn't in anyway be construed as defamaory -- because of the culture that pervades lp101. It is instructive to ask "why is that so?" I would suggest that it is not permitted on lp101 to state that the emperor has no clothes. This injunction doesn't take the form of an explicit directive. Rather it is suggested, hinted at and implied. That is to say, it is a cultural feature of lp101.

[piotr]

Just my $0.02

That post qualifies for a $0.01 refund.

[MacGyver101]

piotr: if all this is just because you're concerned that nobody on LP101 is allowed to criticize Schuyler, then let me try to help put your fears to rest... there's no policy or culture that prevents exactly the same complaints being posted on LP101 about Schuyler's Kickstarter project, and a quick Google search brings up several threads. Here's one from back in January/February, for example.

If there's more that should have been said in that thread, or any of the others, then you should be posting your concers there yourself (you say you have an LP101 account), rather than blaming other people for not posting exactly the right criticisms for you.