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MCS Pick??

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plugspin

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Post Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:26 pm

Re: MCS Pick??

Since we’re dropping 0-days on the MCS now… (and congrats on the open, assuming this all shakes out as valid). Great work droshi!!

Here was my tool I made back in 2008 (I believe referenced by datagram earlier in this thread). It’s not capable of opening the MCS, but merely proved that individual rotors could be manipulated 360 degrees with some precision. Thanks to Barry Wels & Hans Fey I had the opportunity to show to this to EVVA at the Essen security show that year on a V1 MCS. This particular tool (stamped with a 1) I traded to Barry for a V2 MCS. I still have tool #2. The magnet used is a rotor magnet from a V1 lock which I drilled a second tiny hole in to attach the wire. The post is actually from the rotor shell which encases the magnet, I cut the post out and glued it to the center of the hole, works like a charm. These parts are only available from the V1 lock which used metal rotors and thicker magnets, so limited supply. Due to the way the wire has to be guided this tool really can’t scale to rotate 4 magnets or use a V2 magnet. But the basic concept works at least.

While at Essen that same year I had the opportunity to meet Mr. Drumm (of the Geminy Drumm lock protector). He doesn’t speak English so the conversation was via translation. But he described making a tool he claimed to defeat the MCS. This is to be taken with a grain of salt of course as his thing was trying to prove why you needed to buy the Gemini lock protector. However he indicated his tool worked by somehow spinning the rotors in the lock very fast as you applied tension, the rotors would all catch quickly. I heard multiple versions of the story where he claimed he mailed this tool to an SSDEV member and it was “lost in the mail”. Again, grains, salt, and rumors of things that no one ever actually laid eyes on.

Anyway, these are some old ghost stories from an old fart. Again, big congrats to droshi.



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droshi

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Post Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:02 pm

Re: MCS Pick??

Cool idea and tool design. I have been thinking about different designs that would be less "free hand", but the problem is the space is quite limited. I'm sure someone will be able to design one eventually to manipulate all the rotors. First step is manipulating, once you can do that faster and more reliably, it should in theory make picking faster!
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Patrick Star

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Post Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:19 pm

Re: MCS Pick??

My idea was to do it using electromagnets. This would theoretically also allow you to read the state of the rotors via back-EMF (or any of the other applicable magnetic/electric forces).
However, PCB design/wiring gets tricky to say the least, and I haven't done the math to see if you can actually get enough force to move the rotors in the size available for the magnets and wiring.
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huxleypig

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The Prestigious and Powerful Porcine Prelate

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Post Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:27 pm

Re: MCS Pick??

Cool idea plugspin. I know that story about the tool getting lost in the mail but I heard it was a Stazi tool and for the predecessor to Evva having the lock, when it was Zeiss Ikon. Did you drill a hole in that rotor magnet? Moving a pick like this with precision is something I struggled with for quite a while. For a while my design used a tiny rubber band and was exceedingly impractical :-)

The rotors don't need much magnetic force to move them at all but cramming 8 electromagnets into there...I gave that up for dead a long time ago.

Evva know damn well that it isn't invincible and they always have.
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plugspin

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Post Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:44 pm

Re: MCS Pick??

Thanks guys.

Patrick Star wrote:My idea was to do it using electromagnets. This would theoretically also allow you to read the state of the rotors via back-EMF (or any of the other applicable magnetic/electric forces).
However, PCB design/wiring gets tricky to say the least, and I haven't done the math to see if you can actually get enough force to move the rotors in the size available for the magnets and wiring.


With electromagnets you have your choice of high-current or high-winding count to reach the field strengths needed. I tried the high-current route by wrapping enamled wire around a brass shim just to see if I could get the magnets to move at all. Dumped enough current into the winding (probably about 24 gauge) that the enamel started boiling away and I did not see any movement at all in the rotors. This was about the largest wire I could get into the keyway.

That leaves high-winding count to reach the field strengths needed. At the time I could not find winding wire in the 40-60 guage range, but it does exist (old cassette tape heads use wire about this size). I never did the math to see what kind of winding is required to get anything useful to happen.

huxleypig wrote:Cool idea plugspin. I know that story about the tool getting lost in the mail but I heard it was a Stazi tool and for the predecessor to Evva having the lock, when it was Zeiss Ikon. Did you drill a hole in that rotor magnet? Moving a pick like this with precision is something I struggled with for quite a while. For a while my design used a tiny rubber band and was exceedingly impractical :-)

The rotors don't need much magnetic force to move them at all but cramming 8 electromagnets into there...I gave that up for dead a long time ago.

Evva know damn well that it isn't invincible and they always have.


Yea, like I said, I've heard multiple stories about Drumm's MCS tool getting lost in the mail so who knows. That's all part of the fun and lore of this stuff ;-). The rotor magnet had an original hole in the middle and I drilled a tiny second hole so the wire could hold onto it and rotate the magnet. One problem to scaling up is that there is no way to have more than one of these mechanisms side-by-side.

I think something that simply rotates 4 magnets inside a tool "body" is all you need for faster opening. There's so little space in there that you just can't get much in there. I've been very impressed with some of the work that has happened here on the MCS in the past few years. However simplicity is king. Raking is not a precise picking method, but it works and it often works damn fast... ;-).

And I have no ill-will towards EVVA, they do some amazing work. Locks are made and locks age out with time and patience.
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