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Re: What have you picked today

PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:05 pm
by Patrick Star
I haven't been able to find any tools for the lever locks that are common here - ASSA 90001 and FAS 309.
I have managed to pick half of one by using a filed-down key as a tensioner, but no luck going up from that. So it's been sitting on my desk laughing at me since forever, despite having an open keyway and no actual anti-pick features .

Any suggestions?
Pictures of both are in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=111&t=11752

Re: What have you picked today

PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:09 pm
by madsamurai
Thanks ratlock, I appreciate the advice and tips. As to the expense of the 2-in-1 picks, that was what inspired me to make my own... now that I have all of the tools I need (which isn't much), I can make these for about $3-4 each, and with replaceable/swappable tips, so not too worried about screwing up. There are some dimensions I'm not sure about (just going off of pictures) and will have to tweak once I get some locks in my hands, but I think they're gonna turn out pretty nice.
I do have lots of music wire stock in a bunch of sizes, so will be trying that, too. The 2-in-1 concept seemed like it'd be easier to manage, so that's why I started there. I'd love to see pictures of tools, particularly the ones you find most useful and have made yourself, and would love an easy non-curtain lock if you've got them to spare... pm me and I'll send you shipping money, and see if I've got anything for trade you'd be interested in (tho I don't really have anything special at the moment).

Re: What have you picked today

PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:30 pm
by ratlock
Hi @ Patrick star. Ive never seen one of those before, Can you feel using the key you have been using to pick it whether when applying turning pressure to the bolt, are you managing to bind, and hold up the detainers(levers), and drop them when you let off tension. Or does the lock work in such a way that applying tension to the bolt, (you can use your hand pushing the bolt back to try) has no binding effect on the detainers.?

@ madsamurai pm me your address and I will send you an easy non curtain lever mortice lock to start offf with.

If making wires. start with getting the tension wire right, so it goes into the "v" shaped notch in the bolt(the talon) and move the bolt in and out of the lock with no levers in at all. Then make a pick wire to lift the levers whilst tensioning the bolt, then you will pop your first lever lock. When making your pick wire angle it very slightly off the square back towards yourself. When fumbling around to start with its sometimes easy to miss, or not get properly onto lever 1.

Re: What have you picked today

PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:37 pm
by Petrolhead
Patrick Star wrote:I haven't been able to find any tools for the lever locks that are common here - ASSA 90001 and FAS 309.
I have managed to pick half of one by using a filed-down key as a tensioner, but no luck going up from that. So it's been sitting on my desk laughing at me since forever, despite having an open keyway and no actual anti-pick features .

Any suggestions?
Pictures of both are in this thread: http://www.keypicking.com/viewtopic.php?f=111&t=11752



I dont think it can be tensiond, or am i wrong?

Re: What have you picked today

PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:51 pm
by ratlock
@petrolhead I think your right. I have an old "butters" system lock at home, and at first glance you think looks easy till you try it. It doesnt put any pressure on the detainers, when you try and pick it.
I will dig it out and have another look at it this weekend. I will pass on any success.

Re: What have you picked today

PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:55 pm
by Patrick Star
See that thing at the bottom after the levers are removed?
lever0.jpg

Each end of the key has 2 cuts with the same bitting. One end controls 2 levers - these are always the same bitting.
The other end goes into that slot in the "thing" so it's rotated when you turn the key.
lever1.png

The thing at the bottom is attached to the bolt via the little pivot.
So when you turn the key, it either pushes or pulls the bolt depending on the direction.
In this photo, it's unlocked, so you would turn the key left, pushing down on the pivot which pushes the bolt out.

And yes, the levers bind when you either tension the "thing" or push on the bolt.

Also, there are supposedly pin and cam tools available for FAS 309, which has a very similar construction to this one. That obviously needs to tension it.
Plus the photo of someones homemade pick that was used in burglaries clearly shows a crude, standard Hobbs pick.

Re: What have you picked today

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:58 am
by ratlock
ThreeXBearsXPick.jpg


Hay@Patrick. What Id suggest you do is cut a key so it can act a a rest for your wire pick. Dont try to tension first off till you get a feel for using a pick to lift the levers first.
start by using your hand pushing the bolt back.

When starting off. If you do both things at once it can get confusing, its a bit like how it feels, when patting your head and rubbing your belly at the same time.

Re: What have you picked today

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:03 am
by ratlock
Then once you get a feel for how the levers react when reaching the gates,and finesse in your movements with a pick wire. You can then cut a key that will act as a rest for your pick wire , and as a tension tool to turn the bolt.

Re: What have you picked today

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 9:10 pm
by Petrolhead
Patrick Star wrote:See that thing at the bottom after the levers are removed?
lever0.jpg

Each end of the key has 2 cuts with the same bitting. One end controls 2 levers - these are always the same bitting.
The other end goes into that slot in the "thing" so it's rotated when you turn the key.


Also, there are supposedly pin and cam tools available for FAS 309, which has a very similar construction to this one. That obviously needs to tension it.
Plus the photo of someones homemade pick that was used in burglaries clearly shows a crude, standard Hobbs pick.


Thanks for the picture and the info on the bolt.

Re: What have you picked today

PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:23 pm
by tpark
A challenge lock from Random.
This took me Way Too Long - there are some nasty home made spools and countermilling that make it impossible to open unless the spools are set in the correct order.
Image

A Mul t lock interactive.

These aren't as terrible as I though they would be before I started opening dimple locks - they just take a bit of patience and not oversetting anything.

Image

Re: What have you picked today

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:39 pm
by Ronchopathe
Well done for the MTL interactive, I myself have still problems with them. :cool:

Yesterday I received a superb parcel from DroppedTensionWrench, Medeco Original 6 pins with spools (mushrooms?):

Image

And a SARGENT mortise cylinder, 6 normal pins I think, but delicate to open:

Image

Thanks Joshua for the locks! :D

Re: What have you picked today

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:57 pm
by macavity
A Ruko 540 if I am correct on the numbering.

Correct number or not, it's the version with both security sleeve and counter milled core.

I was lucky enough that this was a mastered keyed lock, so no room for christmas trees. Only gin bottles, which are nasty enough.

Picking these without using two tension wrenches is all but impossible, unless one happen to have a TOK that needs to be squeezed in:
Image


The master wafers did play a role. Pin 5 was set with one wafer up the bible:
Image


Total picking time is probably around 6 hours with a truckload of resets out of frustration :P

Re: What have you picked today

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:46 pm
by Patrick Star
Is this an "original" (pre-ASSA) Ruko? The pins look like ASSA but the rest certainly doesn't. Custom-pinned?

Re: What have you picked today

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:27 pm
by macavity
Patrick Star wrote:Is this an "original" (pre-ASSA) Ruko? The pins look like ASSA but the rest certainly doesn't. Custom-pinned?


This is the version 3 with original pins. I don't know if ASSA got the pins from Ruko or the other way around though. But both being Scandinavian lock companies cross pollination before the merger is absolutely not unlikely. Whatever the direction is somewhat irrelevant to me.

From what I gather the technological versions of the core is like this:
v1: Plain and simple smooth core.
v2: First appearance of counter milled core and security sleeve. Holes are all round.
v3: Ever so slightly deeper counter milling. Holes 1-4 are now elongated.
v4: No counter milling to the core. Security sleeve is slightly thicker and the "counter milling" is done to the inside of the sleeve instead. (I think the 600 had been launched at this point)
v5: Current day version with two serrations at the top of each key hole and ASSA barrel spools.

Between v1 and v4 of the core there is supposedly quite a few interim upgrades to the driver pinning style, but I have not yet gotten hold of a complete technical timeline from a trustworthy source. I've e-mailed Ruko about it, so lets see if they get a knee jerk reaction, or if they are actually interested in preserving the history of an amazing lock that ended its security status with something as completely obvious (but overlooked for decades) invention called "a bump key" :P

Re: What have you picked today

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:05 am
by macavity
This is a discount version of the ASSA 700 sold at Biltema ("Home Depot"). The pinning is quite like its mundane sibling, but this one does not have counter milling in the core, which the ASSA 700 allegedly has (Still haven't seen a photo to prove this). EDIT: Proof proved by Patrick Star further down. Thanks!

Despite being a discount version with somewhat poor finish, and a tiny bit too small a diameter in the core if you ask me, this lock put up quite a bit of a fight until I learned how to tickle it just right.

Feather light tension is the trick, as the counter rotation on those christmass trees is really slight, and they can grab up really badly if you push them too hard, be it sideways or upwards.

Despite the light tension I simply can't set pin 1 from the bottom of the key way. As shown I used a .030" TOK pry bar in the bottom as a lever. It obviously also helps in providing manual counter rotation.

Image

This lock only requires super strict set order in the beginning, until the first level false set occurs. The spools in 5,3 and 1 can be set in any order if manual counter rotation is provided. If not, 3 has to be picked first, as otherwise it grabs up so bad that even letting go of the tension altogether won't matter. A .023" will bend before that spool gives up. After the spools are set, its just a matter of lightly testing 6,4 and 2 to get to the second level false set, which is nearly as deep as that of the Ruko 540. At this stage there is a set order if light tension is used, but if a more medium'ish tension is used they will set with a sharp click each, when the snout on the christmass trees clears the sheer line.

As can be seen here the driver pins are brass but has sharper edges than the steel ASSA/Ruko christmas trees. Also note the tapering of all the keypins. They overset quite easily. The standard driver pin in 7 is also tapered, which means I have to set it like 4 times in the initial phase.

Since I don't have a proper set of lock tools yet I found it prudent to use one of Biltema's ball point pens as a follower. The shim is cut from a beer can. Tuborg if you must ask.

Image