Brinks Maximum Security Brass Padlock

[jruther2]

Is the situation that is going on in this lock that you described a rare one? Is it mainly just with these brinks brass locks? Or will I run into this more and more as I advance into picking more secure locks??

No it is not rare. In fact, you will run in to this situation many times because the binding order is simply a result of manufacturing tolerances and flaws...all locks have these flaws some are just more extreme than others. When picking locks we are exploiting those flaws to our advantage. As you progress to higher quality locks you will most certainly get into situations where a false set is your enemy if you fall into it too soon...the squire strongholds come to mind. In those locks, and others that have tight tolerances, you won't be able to recover from a false set that occurs too soon and you'll have to start over. Just keep track of what pins you are setting and in what order and work through the picking by process of elimination.
You are very persistent and it will pay off in this hobby. Now go get that Brinks picked!

[Riff]

Is the situation that is going on in this lock that you described a rare one? Is it mainly just with these brinks brass locks? Or will I run into this more and more as I advance into picking more secure locks??

No it is not rare. In fact, you will run in to this situation many times because the binding order is simply a result of manufacturing tolerances and flaws...all locks have these flaws some are just more extreme than others. When picking locks we are exploiting those flaws to our advantage. As you progress to higher quality locks you will most certainly get into situations where a false set is your enemy if you fall into it too soon...the squire strongholds come to mind. In those locks, and others that have tight tolerances, you won't be able to recover from a false set that occurs too soon and you'll have to start over. Just keep track of what pins you are setting and in what order and work through the picking by process of elimination.
You are very persistent and it will pay off in this hobby. Now go get that Brinks picked!

Thanks again dude. Thank you very much for taking the time to make that great video for me, and I'm sure other people out there who are dealing with the same situation.....hopefully when I get good enough one day I can return the favor. Gimmie your address and I'll ship you a sixpack.

[Riff]

Update: I studied your drawing and explanation jruther2. I worked on that lock for 6 solided hours last night. I actually worked with both methods, the long way around and the more direct way. This is what I'm doing now. I'm not going in and setting the second pin (regular driver) right away. I'm going in and setting the fourth pin. Raising it slightly above where it feels springy. Then I'm going after the fifth pin and setting is as well. The issue I'm having is that I can feel the pins but I cannot feel either one of these pins binding (setting)..... But I know they are setting because when I slightly let off tension I can hear and feel them dropping (two clicks). What I'm doing is going a bit heavier on the tension (from top) than I would normaly be doing and also being a bit heavier on the pick side as well. As I'm picking up on the pin in question I'm backing off on the tension slightly to try and feel some counter rotation. But I'm feeling none. Right now I'm just going in and assuming they are set, but I'm kinda lost because I cant feel the pins being set. I cant understand why I feel no counter rotation. I've tried heavy tension, light tension at different times while I'm trying to pick. It really seems like this lock only responds to heavy tension and heavy on the pick side. Every once in a while with heavy tension and heavy on the pick side I can feel a very very very slight counter rotation and a slight click when raising the 4th and 5th pin. I guess that's what I'm looking for. But I'm not comfortable using that much tension on the wrench side and on the pick side. On you video it doesnt look like you are using much for on either side. Anyway, when I achieve this, which isint very often, I can feel no other pins binding. I guess to sum up what I'm saying, is that I am having a hard time feeling pins binding in this lock. I believe if I could feel this then I would be able to work from there. Last night It crossed my mind to open this lock with my AK-47. LOL...... I'm gonna keep at it. Oh and by the way, it looks like you are using a homade shorthook??? I've been using a peterson govt steel offset diamond. I find it easier to pick up the pins with this pick because it seems like you have to raise the pins so high. I actually bent the damn thing last night. Which is a big no no for me. I've learned and got very good at SPP with light tension. But I've been trying everything. Any other advice will be greatly appreciated. I'm not gonna give up on this lock damn it!!!!! I'll be working on it all this evening. Thanks again.

[jruther2]

What I'm doing is going a bit heavier on the tension (from top) than I would normaly be doing and also being a bit heavier on the pick side as well. As I'm picking up on the pin in question I'm backing off on the tension slightly to try and feel some counter rotation. But I'm feeling none. Right now I'm just going in and assuming they are set, but I'm kinda lost because I cant feel the pins being set. I cant understand why I feel no counter rotation.

I'll address this first...LIGHTEN UP ON YOUR TENSION! There is no reason to be bending a pick on this lock...maybe you just need to walk away for a while and clear your head. Go pick some master no. 3's or something similar and get your confidence back.
Second: You WILL NOT feel any counter rotation until the plug has rotated over to the 1 o'clock position due to the number 2 pin having been set.

I'm going in and setting the fourth pin. Raising it slightly above where it feels springy. Then I'm going after the fifth pin and setting is as well. The issue I'm having is that I can feel the pins but I cannot feel either one of these pins binding (setting)..... But I know they are setting because when I slightly let off tension I can hear and feel them dropping (two clicks).

You may be over setting 4 and/or 5. After you think you've set 4 then go to 2 and see if you can set it and get you to the 1 o'clock position. If you can't then you've over set 4 and now the 4th key pin is up in the shear line. If 2 does set and gives you the 1 o'clock position on the plug then move on to setting another pin (which WILL give counter rotation because the 2nd pin has been set which allowed the plug to rotate to the 1 o'clock position where it now binds on the skinny part of the spool pins that have yet to be set). For now, the best way for you to figure out the binding order will be to repeat this process of trying to set number 2 after each time you set a pin...at least that's what works for me.

[porky]

ok I have re-read this thread like 5 times now...

let me clarify the way I understand it ....

your first pin you are looking for is NOT a binding pin , but rather a pin that sets you in the 1 o'clock position ?

soo I bassically apply a bit of tension and then press down each pin until I get to a 1 o'clock position?

after that , I go to each of the remaining pins and push them down a bit and try and feel , through the tension wrench for counter rotation? (CCW) ?

if I feel the CCW rotation then that is the pin I need to set , soo I push it down until I hear a "click" ?


and I do this to all the pins?


have I got it right?

thanks:)

[gibbling666]

ok I have re-read this thread like 5 times now...

let me clarify the way I understand it ....

your first pin you are looking for is NOT a binding pin , but rather a pin that sets you in the 1 o'clock position ?

soo I bassically apply a bit of tension and then press down each pin until I get to a 1 o'clock position?

after that , I go to each of the remaining pins and push them down a bit and try and feel , through the tension wrench for counter rotation? (CCW) ?

if I feel the CCW rotation then that is the pin I need to set , soo I push it down until I hear a "click" ?


and I do this to all the pins?


have I got it right?

thanks:)

Hey Porky,

In these Brass Brinks locks the 2 pin is a standard driver while the 4 other pins are spools (atleast from what I have seen and heard). So in this case you can set pin 2 (which since its diameter is wider than the thin diameter of the spool its feels to be the first binding pin) and get a false set. If you are fighting this lock then you can set pin 2 and get the false set to the 1 o'clock position and then check each pin for the one that gives the most ccw rotation and slightly release tension to allow the bottom lip of the spool to move past the sheer line. You may frequently overset the spool pins until you get the tension required and the 2nd pin will frequently drop (at least it did for me) so you will need to set it again to achieve the false set so you get ccw rotation on the spools you haven't set yet. Going back over the pins you think you set is a good idea until you figure out the binding order. For example, my brinks required I set pin 5 first then set pin 2 for the false set. I then played around with pin 4 and 3 as they both provided decent ccw rotation and eventually I learned I could set pin 3 which would cause pin 2 to drop free (so pin 5 and 3 were set now). I would set pin 2 again to achieve the false set again and set pin 4. In the beginning I would either overset pin 4 and need to release tension to get it to drop down so I could try again or I would just spaz out and start over. So at this point pin 5,4,3 and pin 2 were set. Now I would slightly release tension and set pin 1 and the plug would turn free.

In other locks there could be 2 standard driver pins or any combination of spools and standards that you would need to decipher by playing around with the lock.

[porky]

wow that is really confusing!

I have been picking this lock now , it it felt like every pin had set except one was springey , also i was on 1 o clock rotation and no matter how much pressure I put on the pins i could not feel any counter rotation!

[gibbling666]

Sounds like an overset pin. That could keep the plug from being able to push up against that last pin that was springy keeping it from setting. I would try lightly releasing pressure so one pin drops and then see if the springy pin is, well, springy still.

[porky]

ok heres where i am confused....

how can you OVERSET a pin and still get the 1 o' clock position?

surely if a pin is overset it would lock the plug at 12 o'clock?

then check each pin for the one that gives the most ccw rotation

ok soo i must only go for the pins giving the MOST CCW rotation and then the pins with less CCW rotation?

[gibbling666]

ok heres where i am confused....

how can you OVERSET a pin and still get the 1 o' clock position?

surely if a pin is overset it would lock the plug at 12 o'clock?

then check each pin for the one that gives the most ccw rotation

ok soo i must only go for the pins giving the MOST CCW rotation and then the pins with less CCW rotation?

Going for the pins that give the most ccw rotation reduces the chance of set pins falling out of a set state (at least thats what I ran into). As for the overset pin and still getting a false set, I must have misread your previous post. If you are in a false set and the pin feels springy then it may be a for a very shallow cut on the key, meaning you will need to raise it higher than the rest. Grab a long hook and try feeling the springy pin, it may just not been raised high enough to hit the lip of the spool pin.

[porky]

ok thanks for your reply...

I dont have a long hook , only :

Medium hook , Half Diamond , S-rake , Saw rake .


thanks for your reply! im still trying to pick that yale lock in my other post and it has all these damn spool pins and is behaving just like the lock posted on here!