Schlage Lock question

[the lockpickkid]

Well, my sister is a big time property manager for a very large apartment complex and she has run into a problem and has asked me to help, so I am going to put this out here for advice to other methods and for discussion.
She had a move out of an apartment and the tenant key and the master key worked fine when she went in to look around, now today she says that the tenant key and the master key won't open the lock and the door is locked and wants me to get it open, first thing I am thinking is that a master wafer has become stuck in the keyway, other than that what the heck do you guys think I am going to find? I can't pick the lock to get in if the key don't work, I may be able to use my lever opening tool if I can get it in the door, but what else should I do other than drilling the lock? It may be an easy fix but I haven't looked yet, only thing that worries me is that I hate to mess with master key systems, I don't want to mess up some guys system. What do ya think?

[ToolyMcgee]

It's broken

Are we just talking about a deadbolt or knob. Does the key spin, or does it jam? If it is both, they are probably the wrong keys A possible schlage apartment complex deadbolt jam.... friction between the bolt and the door strike can make it tough to open, or the tailpiece could be out of sync with the thumb turn. It depends on the age of the lock. Maybe its just dirty and will work with a shot of WD40 like new, or it's a knob you can jimmy with a credit card I'm sure you'll save the drill, but don't forget to charge the battery. It presents an interesting problem, but if the lock is truely broken, then is say drill it and rekey her a new lock to her old keys. The pin stacks in a busted lock wouldn't be much help anyway, right?

-Tooly

1, Could be malicious damage, such as a foreign object in the keyway.
2, Could be mechanical fault. If a spring has died or a worn pin has dropped below the sheerline, it could lock up.
3, Could be her keys. Make sure they're the right ones, and they're nice looking keys, no defects or badly duplicated.
4, May have been rekeyed by a locksmith.

If your not confident on the job, don't attempt it. Refer it to the locksmith that set up the original system.

[the lockpickkid]

funny thing is, she used her masterkey to open the door after the guy moved out, then she locked it, and today the masterkey won't work, or the tenant key, the key goes in but won't turn. The guy may have been pissed about somthing and came back and jammed something in there, or a worn pin may have fallen, I bet this is the problem. It's just in the key in knob lock, if I can't get it open I will just drill it and repin it, not a big problem, I just usually shy away from doing anything behind another locksmith just because, I strongly feel that if you have another guy set up a masterkey system and he does good work, you should have him in control of all the work on that system. I have always done the locksmith work for my sisters complexes but she just took over a new one and I have no idea the in's and outs of the place, the guy who messes with the locks has already made mistakes before, and is just a maintenance man, not a locksmith.

[Josh]

there wouldnt happen to be any windows that could be opened and climbed through is there? if so, climb through and take the lock off from the inside.

[the lockpickkid]

yep, there are windows and a glass door, I have tools that I use for window locks and stuff like that, I am a non-destructive entry person, I seldom with the little experience I have, destroy anything. It is always a good learning experience to deal with things like this, I have essentially been a locksmith "student" for a while now, and real world things like this are always fun for me.

[frantic57744]

sounds odd doesn't it, working one day and not the next. mmm i reckon the lock has been changed !! Too much of a coincidence imo,

[aarpazthelockpicker]

can you pick it

[the lockpickkid]

I could pick it, but it doesn't seem of much use to try, no locks can get changed without my sisters approval, and she is the one who orders and approves such work, and since I don't think the lock is changed and none of the tenant keys work or the Master, I think the lock is broke, so picking would not do much good, I don't think anyway, but it's always worth a shot. But I bet if I run a pick into it, I may feel a pin jamed. I am going there tomorrow and I will keep it posted what I find.

There is a perfectly valid reason to pick it.

If you can identify the problem, you can say "Yeah your problem was XXX fault in YYY component"
If it's pinning, then replacing the pins will solve the problem.

Looks dodgy to say "Don't know what your problem is, so I destroyed the lock"
Drill as a last resort, not an initial evaluation.


Also, there may be other keys in the system that you are unaware of, such as sub-master keys that cleaners may use, tradesman access keys, etc.

[the lockpickkid]

I went and got the door open, I simply shimmed it, took the lock all apart and funny thing is, it was master keyed but possibly the wrong way, I tried the master key in the lock and it wouldn't work, but would work on the apartment next door, my sister said she has ran into a few others that it doesn't work for as well. I did however find one compressed spring and a thin master wafer that had fallen slightly sideways into the keyway and jammed the lock. I put it back together and the tenant key now works. I am not going to worry about why the master key doesn't work because the original guy who set up the system is going to come out and trouble shoot the whole system. I don't have the expertice to do much with master key systems I really need to learn how to do this but so far haven't found any good training aids for doing it yet.

Must be some wicked keyway for a master pin to fall not only into the keyway, but beside the bottom pin too.

Sometimes master pins will flip sideways, that can stop a key from working. But running a key in and out rapidly, or using a snap gun will fix that.

Never seen one fall into a keyway on a 90degree-turn entrance set.

[the lockpickkid]

I should have taken pictures for you to look at Gutterclown, since I have very little experience in master key systems I don't know what's right or wrong, but this was the most crazy looking thing I have seen, I don't think it was done right, and the plug had wear marks in it from the pins rubbing on it so hard and the keyway was wollered out where you could move the key side to side in the keyway. Also one of the pinstacks had like two or three small wafers in it to make a long pin instead of having one long pin and one wafer, this sytem was only a master, not a grand master or anything that complex. The whole lockset was a total mess, had alot of play , had a ton of shavings inside, etc, these locks need to be totally changed out. Totally beyond its lifespan and probably had no maintenance at all. I may be wrong in my explanation, but you get the idea, just a mess!

Also one of the pinstacks had like two or three small wafers in it to make a long pin instead of having one long pin and one wafer, this sytem was only a master, not a grand master or anything that complex.

If it had multiple master pins in one chamber, there was atleast three levels of access to the system.

Probably a Cleaners key, or Sub-Master that accessed all the rooms, but not the main office.
Also, sometimes systems include a Trade Master, which is similar. 90%-99% access, apart from high-level areas.