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Sargent Keso question

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Patrick Star

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Post Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:50 pm

Sargent Keso question

So, I was picking a Sargent Keso when this happened:
snafu.png

The plug rotated quite a bit but won't go any further.
It's probably not obvious from the picture but it has moved several degrees from its starting position.
All(?) pins feel solid, like they are pushing against the outer shell and not the top pins, stopping at different heights, just like you'd expect from a picked lock that has started to turn.

What has happened here? Have I simply missed some pin(s) and it's just me being stupid from not being used to multi-row pin tumblers?
Is there some small secondary locking mechanism / profile control I'm missing?
Did it break? It seems free to move back to the closed position, though I haven't let it move all the way back in case this is just some stupid easily fixed problem remaining before it's fully picked... This lock has acted up a bit before but did open with a key.
I've experienced dimple locks getting screwed up when turning them without a key, but not this early in the rotation :)
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macgng

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Post Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:39 am

Re: Sargent Keso question

show us the back of the cylinder. you might have picked it to control if it is a removable core that should be in a mortise housing, which it could be looking at it now.
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Patrick Star

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Post Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:04 am

Re: Sargent Keso question

Ah, yeah...
back.png

The "extra lug" there means it's an IC core, right? As in, it's what keeps the core in the housing unless it's in control?

This is in the locked position, by the way.
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Patrick Star

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Post Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:24 am

Re: Sargent Keso question

So, it's not going into control... The control lug remains in place.
These locks are not dual shearline. Instead there is a single pin in the back that engages the control lug. Operating keys simply don't have a tip with the right shape to push it.
If I push that pin up after picking the rest (counter-rotating the core slightly in the process), the control lug is unlocked but there is very little rotation of it. This does not happen otherwise unless the operating key is inserted so at least I seem to have picked the entire thing.
I have tried it both CW and CCW with the same results (though when picking CW the whole part about the control lug should be irrelevant since it's rotated CCW to put it into control).

It's almost like the rotation gets stuck at the point where it'd either pick up the control lug or just keep turning the tailpiece, but there's absolutely no way I am gutting this thing to find out (or rather, absolutely no way I would be able to get it back together afterwards).

I am wondering whether there's some pin/slider that has to be pressed down before any rotation is applied...? Or is my lock just FUBAR - it doesn't open reliably with the key unless it's held at a slight angle (some spring being crappy, perhaps...?)

Ideas, anyone?

Atleast it's a damn fun pick up to the time it gets stuck! :)
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adi_picker

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Post Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:30 am

Re: Sargent Keso question

Sorry about the late reply Patrick.

For the control lug on these, they have their own pin, located right at the back and top of the barrel going through the sleeve of the control lug. Perhaps you are missing this pin?

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Patrick Star

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Post Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:06 pm

Re: Sargent Keso question

adi_picker wrote:For the control lug on these, they have their own pin, located right at the back and top of the barrel going through the sleeve of the control lug. Perhaps you are missing this pin?

Yes - see my last post :).
Basically, if I pick the thing and then set that pin, the control lug itself is unlocked (so it can be moved from outside the lock), but turning the actual cylinder still doesn't affect it.

I have put it into control by using the actual key and poking the control pin from the back. This lets it rotate a lot more than after me picking it, and obviously retracts the control lug.


You'd almost suspect I'm getting the lock in a false set, but AFAIK these things don't have security pins. And it rotates a lot more than what I'd expect a false set to look like with these tiny pins. No real feedback from any of the pins either.
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adi_picker

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Post Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:28 pm

Re: Sargent Keso question

Ahhh, I see Patrick.

You are correct, no security pins, just standards and they are balanced stacks. I took some photos when I had it apart, but they werent amazing so I didnt share them. I have uploaded them for you, you can see them here. Hopefully they might give you a better idea of what you are dealing with.

adi_picker
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GWiens2001

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Post Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:35 am

Re: Sargent Keso question

There are two possibilities that I suspect. First, if there are security pins, then you are in a false set. Second, one or more of the pin stacks are too short in total height, leaving the driver pin below the shear line and the plug is being stopped from rotating by the spring.

Gordon
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Patrick Star

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Post Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:28 pm

Re: Sargent Keso question

If it was stopped by a spring, it wouldn't be possible to rotate it back to the locked position, right? It rotates back perfectly fine without any trickery.

Plus this is a hard stop. I have had springs keep the lock from rotating when screwing up custom pinnings and it tends to feel a lot more ... springy.

Regarding security pins, see above. TL;DR: Keso is not supposed to have them, and there is too much rotation compared to the size of the pins.

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