Legal liability from picking locks on camera?

[Jaakko Fagerlund]

Well we know for a fact that the bottom-feeding lawyers trawl this site (among others), looking for potential violations. And I don't know about you but I am not in the mood for a potentially bankrupting court battle, no matter what the legality. Some companies are known for it and I would name and shame but I do not want to damage the site.

In here that court battle wouldn't even start or would stop to the first hearing as there is nothing illegal happening. Loser pays and money doesn't buy you more time in a court

Mods, can I have the green light to name and shame? The company certainly deserve it.

If the company in question would have had their way, this would not have been a criminal thing, it would have been a civil lawsuit. If it were criminal then it would be even worse because in the UK now you can't claim legal expenses back as a defendant, even if you win. The prosecution can do so, if they win though. It's bullshit.

Now that sounds fucked up court system, if you can't claim your expenses that came due to some other peoples actions. Holy cow...

[Riyame]

Well we know for a fact that the bottom-feeding lawyers trawl this site (among others), looking for potential violations. And I don't know about you but I am not in the mood for a potentially bankrupting court battle, no matter what the legality. Some companies are known for it and I would name and shame but I do not want to damage the site.

In here that court battle wouldn't even start or would stop to the first hearing as there is nothing illegal happening. Loser pays and money doesn't buy you more time in a court

Mods, can I have the green light to name and shame? The company certainly deserve it.

If the company in question would have had their way, this would not have been a criminal thing, it would have been a civil lawsuit. If it were criminal then it would be even worse because in the UK now you can't claim legal expenses back as a defendant, even if you win. The prosecution can do so, if they win though. It's bullshit.

Hmm, would need to get Elbow or MBI to chime in on that.

[indigoalpha6]

Thanks so much for all your info and thoughts guys! Sounds like my understanding was pretty much correct that there is basically no grounds for a lawsuit unless you are badmouthing the company. Even then, I think the grounds would be very limited. Is there a link to the MWT article in LSS? Some quick googling turned up nothing. He is a lawyer, and it would actually be good to read what he had to say about it.

Thanks again everyone!

fear of legal trouble is actually one of the main reasons why i don't do videos. i have a "sensitive" job and i am known in my field, plus i just don't want any trouble -i've had enough trouble for two lifetimes, and also let me propose another scenario for you: "little johnny" picks his father's gun lock and shoots his little brother dead. how did little johhny learn to pick that lock the lawyer asks? little johhny cries "i saw a guy (potentially me or you) on you-tube who showed me how to do it" regarding this, i really have no idea what if any responsibility i'll have you know? not that i would even bother picking a gun lock, but this would apply to a wide variety of locks.

[Patrick Star]

There are detailed instructions for far "worse" things than lockpicking online, so I wouldn't exactly worry over that.

Like how to fire guns. Or make explosives. Or make illegal drugs (even with non-anonymous authors, for example standard scientific literature or books like PIHKAL that documented it before they were illegal). Or extract ricin (patents also). Etc.
All of these are inherently dangerous, deadly and/or illegal even if done in the safety of your own home - unlike lockpicking.

[indigoalpha6]

There are detailed instructions for far "worse" things than lockpicking online, so I wouldn't exactly worry over that.

Like how to fire guns. Or make explosives. Or make illegal drugs (even with non-anonymous authors, for example standard scientific literature or books like PIHKAL that documented it before they were illegal). Or extract ricin (patents also). Etc.
All of these are inherently dangerous, deadly and/or illegal even if done in the safety of your own home - unlike lockpicking.

in a country of unbridled litigation like the US, newly minted, barely competent and arrogant lawyers go for the low hanging fruit -no offense meant to the hardworking, honorable ones who uphold the law correctly. hell, most of the cops i've encountered don't even know the laws they are trying to enforce resorting to threats and bullying to "get an arrest". imo, leaving to random chance that the "far worse" things will rightfully attract more attention then something less "worse" -and of which this is decided by whom? is not the safest bet.

[MBI]

Mods, can I have the green light to name and shame?

The truth is often the best defense.
Everyone here is responsible for their own words; if you can validate what you say about someone I imagine it would be hard for them to make a legitimate claim against you for telling the truth.

As to legality, I'd make a reasonable effort to comply with any lawful request to remove illegal material posted on the forum.
If what you want to post isn't illegal or blatantly against any forum rules, then I don't have a problem with it.

[huxleypig]

Okay, cool. I only ask because I know the previous site owner was threatened with subpoena if he didn't give up my IP etc.

So the company is called Camlock Systems, here is their public website: http://www.camlock.com/en-uk

They make cheap and nasty locks for the vending/gambling machine market. They tried to patent the obvious lockpick for one of their locks (the Series 28) which is a bog standard 7 pin tubular lock with an octagon for the centre post instead of a circle (revolutionary, lol), which was just a bog standard 7 pin tubular pick with an octagon instead of a circle. For some reason the patent was never granted.

They have used similar tactics to bully other toolmakers in order to stop them selling the (obvious) lockpick. I always found it really strange that this lock is everywhere but there was never a tool for it. And now I know why. This shows incredible myopia, if it is so obvious what a pick tool should look like then it is only a matter of time until a criminal does it. Silencing people like this serves to keep the lock insecure. They're pretending everything is rosy in the garden because the songbirds have been silenced! It makes more sense to design a better lock, not rely on something so superficial for security.

As it happens there are other, much, much worse vulnerabilities in their locks but this is one company that is not going to be interested in working together to iron those flaws out. All that will happen is that the vulnerabilities will just get exploited by criminals. Sadly, there seems to be a lot of companies like this. And just to be clear, when I say "working together" I do not mean simply telling the company everything you have found in return for nothing, I mean a mutually beneficial exchange, like how everything else on the planet works. Like a consultancy or a bug bounty.

[Josephus]

Didn't know that they made anything themselves. All their products have Chinese import quality. Apparently they have a handful of patents.

Those octagonal pegs...patent no. EP 0936330 B1, doesn't have much time left. Surprising that it was approved in the first place. It really does boil down to, "tubular lock and key, except an octagonal post instead of a circle". Why would you need a special tool for these? I swear I ran into one some time ago and wiggled in an older HPC tubular pick. Maybe the corners were worn down.

[huxleypig]

I'm amazed they got a patent for it too, in there they have the cheek to say "any substantially regular polygon"! Patenting a shape...

[huxleypig]

Didn't know that they made anything themselves. All their products have Chinese import quality. Apparently they have a handful of patents.

Those octagonal pegs...patent no. EP 0936330 B1, doesn't have much time left. Surprising that it was approved in the first place. It really does boil down to, "tubular lock and key, except an octagonal post instead of a circle". Why would you need a special tool for these? I swear I ran into one some time ago and wiggled in an older HPC tubular pick. Maybe the corners were worn down.

Here is their effort at patenting the pick (patent No GB 2 362 185 A):



I've not been able to get any standard tubular picks into one and I have tried pretty much every tubular pick on the market. If the nose was cracked then maybe you could force it in there. The pins are all in the same place though. It wouldn't take a leap of genius to adapt a regular pick. In fact, it is not so hard to make a pick that doesn't even touch their stupid patented octagon at all. And this is without even mentioning the fact they SPP really easily.

Maybe I'll do a few videos detailing all the other horrendous vulnerabilities in their locks. Normally I would try and work with the company but they burned that bridge a long time ago. I think they will find this much worse than the prospect of me potentially making a pick for it.

So when is the patent up on the lock? 2019 or 2023? Is it 20 years from filing date or publication date? I am guessing filing date (pending successful grant, or course).

[Jaakko Fagerlund]

Patenting a tool in my world would result in me designing such a tool and releasing the design as open source as it is perfectly legal to do it for yourself but not for sale. But for this is it would not be worth it as the tool is just the same as tubular picks otherwise, with just a different shaped end.

As the saying goes - you get what you ask.