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Weird thing

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Geir

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Post Mon Feb 22, 2016 10:07 am

Weird thing

I'm trying to get as much practice time in as possible.
At a bit of a stand-still at the moment, but I think I've figured out a possible reason. I bought the Southord C2010 as my starter set and at first I was very happy.
Because of said stand-still, I have been looking into if the picks are some of the reason, and I do think they are. The tips are so rounded that it seems they "travel" on the key pins.
I have tried to sand the tips to get a better feel and it has helped a little.
Ordered some .018 Peterson's today, hopefully here in a week or so.

Anyways, the weird thing.
I have this generic no-name mortise cylinder, pinned up with standards only, that I've removed some pins from to practice.
Been pickin' at it a couple hours total, nothing! Just can't get anything set.

Decided to replace two of the pins with some spools and all of a sudden:
IMG_0453.JPG


Opened in well under a minute!
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Oldfast

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Post Mon Feb 22, 2016 11:11 am

Re: Weird thing

Geir wrote:I have this generic no-name mortise cylinder, pinned up with standards only, that I've removed some pins from to practice.
Been pickin' at it a couple hours total, nothing! Just can't get anything set.

Decided to replace two of the pins with some spools and all of a sudden: Opened in well under a minute!


What this means is that you're a natural!! All you have to do now is avoid any low-security locks. lol
Nah, really though... just keep at it. Before you know it you'll be pickin' it with standards or spools.

Just remember each pin can be in only one of three states:
1. Under set (you haven't pushed it quite far enough yet)
2. Over set (you've pushed it too far)
3. Set (leave it alone!)

Also be conscious of the pick shaft - it may be disturbing pins other than the one you're lifting.
That looks like a SC1 keyway or similar. Those can be tough to negotiate sometimes.
Let us know how it goes with your new Peterson's when they arrive. I like SouthOrds,
but most of them I thin down with some sanding. They're a little too thick for my liking.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Papa Gleb

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Post Mon Feb 22, 2016 2:30 pm

Re: Weird thing

Geir, standard pins are and have been my worst enemy simply because they off virtually no feedback. Its either set or over set as Oldfast stated but with spools or even serrated, you know whats going on inside.
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Doogs

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Post Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:31 pm

Re: Weird thing

I'm wondering if you have a long pin stack (over length driver) and it was preventing you from getting enough lift. When you replaced it with the spool it was then short enough (obviously if you have a key that works it won't be that). Another but less likely possibility would be a short stack and you were binding on the spring but you probably would of noticed a heavy false set and damage to the spring when you repinned.

Just throwing out ideas, might be worth checking.

I'll be interested to hear what it was if you figure it out.

Anyway if it's any consolation I found a Corbin Russwin Rim Cylinder (5 pin I think) today in the rear hallway closet at the shop and I have spent about 15 minutes on it with no luck. Feels like it's full of sand or gunked up serrateds. I'll give it another 15 then gut it.
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tpark

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Post Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:37 pm

Re: Weird thing

Deleted this one - duplicate posting.
Last edited by tpark on Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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tpark

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Post Mon Feb 22, 2016 6:41 pm

Re: Weird thing

Geir wrote:I'm trying to get as much practice time in as possible.
At a bit of a stand-still at the moment, but I think I've figured out a possible reason. I bought the Southord C2010 as my starter set and at first I was very happy.
Because of said stand-still, I have been looking into if the picks are some of the reason, and I do think they are. The tips are so rounded that it seems they "travel" on the key pins.
I have tried to sand the tips to get a better feel and it has helped a little.
Ordered some .018 Peterson's today, hopefully here in a week or so.

Anyways, the weird thing.
I have this generic no-name mortise cylinder, pinned up with standards only, that I've removed some pins from to practice.
Been pickin' at it a couple hours total, nothing! Just can't get anything set.

Decided to replace two of the pins with some spools and all of a sudden:

Opened in well under a minute!

The GMS six pin "C" keyway mortise cylinder gives good setting feedback if you apply moderate tension - find the binder, then lean on the wrench a bit harder, and the click should be quite noticable when the pin is set. I lubricate the lock with PTFE before starting. The Southord picks I have tend to scrape a bit in this keyway, and this could be interfering with feeling the pins set. The Southord hook I measured was 23 thou, but the Peterson Gem that I use for this lock (15 thou) doesn't scrape in the keyway. These locks tend to have a straightfoward binding order, the one on my desk is 1-2-3-4-5-6, but of course your mileage may vary.

Oddly enough, I don't have any 18 thou Peterson picks - all mine are much thicker or a bit thinner. I'd like to know how well the 18 thou picks work in that keyway.


gem_micrometer.jpg
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JamesOzment1

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Post Tue Feb 23, 2016 10:13 pm

Re: Weird thing

Try increasing tension ever so slightly . I have learned that some locks with standard pins need medium to heavy tension to make the binding pin more noticeable.

I used Southord when I first learned to pick but found they don't offer the feel that I get from a good homebrew or a Peterson . in the beginning my favorite pick was a .015 I made from feeler gauges .after that broke I bought slenders from Peterson.

Keep working on it you will get there with practice. Try going slow and just lightly feel the keypins with your pick this helps you get you sense of feel tuned in .

Try starting with pin 1 if that doesn't work start with last pin.
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xeo

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Post Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:49 am

Re: Weird thing

Spools can make locks easier as you can visually see where you are in the picking process. I'd suggest you get rid of them all and try it with regular pins. It will help you learn how to find binding pins better than spools since you can't visually see the plug turning with counter-rotation.
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HT4

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Post Wed Feb 24, 2016 10:39 am

Re: Weird thing

JamesOzment1 wrote:Try increasing tension ever so slightly . I have learned that some locks with standard pins need medium to heavy tension to make the binding pin more noticeable.


Agreed, but I'd go a step farther.

I'd say to increase tension massively! When I pick a lock that I know is full of standard pins, I use very heavy tension... I'm talking about bowing a .050" prybar heavy. Heavy tension makes the setting pins very distinct, and usually binds multiple pins at a time, making picking much, much faster. This is particularly so with the slightly higher quality locks, like Sergeants. With heavy tension, they are just as easy as a Schlage. It can be a little rough on the picks, but it's the results that matter.

Good luck.
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Geir

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Post Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Weird thing

Oldfast wrote:What this means is that you're a natural!! All you have to do now is avoid any low-security locks. lol
Nah, really though... just keep at it. Before you know it you'll be pickin' it with standards or spools.

Just remember each pin can be in only one of three states:
1. Under set (you haven't pushed it quite far enough yet)
2. Over set (you've pushed it too far)
3. Set (leave it alone!)

Also be conscious of the pick shaft - it may be disturbing pins other than the one you're lifting.
That looks like a SC1 keyway or similar. Those can be tough to negotiate sometimes.
Let us know how it goes with your new Peterson's when they arrive. I like SouthOrds,
but most of them I thin down with some sanding. They're a little too thick for my liking.

Hehe, I'm probably as far from a natural as you get :P
The Southords are a bit thick @ .021. I'll try thinning one or two and see how that feels.

Doogs wrote:I'm wondering if you have a long pin stack (over length driver) and it was preventing you from getting enough lift. When you replaced it with the spool it was then short enough (obviously if you have a key that works it won't be that). Another but less likely possibility would be a short stack and you were binding on the spring but you probably would of noticed a heavy false set and damage to the spring when you repinned.

Just throwing out ideas, might be worth checking.

I'll be interested to hear what it was if you figure it out.

Anyway if it's any consolation I found a Corbin Russwin Rim Cylinder (5 pin I think) today in the rear hallway closet at the shop and I have spent about 15 minutes on it with no luck. Feels like it's full of sand or gunked up serrateds. I'll give it another 15 then gut it.

I have working keys, so probably not that. Checked just to be sure as well.
I also tried putting some of the standards in other locks, along with some specials and with a bit heavy tension I can get some "feedback" from the standards.

tpark wrote:The GMS six pin "C" keyway mortise cylinder gives good setting feedback if you apply moderate tension - find the binder, then lean on the wrench a bit harder, and the click should be quite noticable when the pin is set. I lubricate the lock with PTFE before starting. The Southord picks I have tend to scrape a bit in this keyway, and this could be interfering with feeling the pins set. The Southord hook I measured was 23 thou, but the Peterson Gem that I use for this lock (15 thou) doesn't scrape in the keyway. These locks tend to have a straightfoward binding order, the one on my desk is 1-2-3-4-5-6, but of course your mileage may vary.

Oddly enough, I don't have any 18 thou Peterson picks - all mine are much thicker or a bit thinner. I'd like to know how well the 18 thou picks work in that keyway.


I think I was using to light tension as stated above. I'll try setting the lock with just the standards again soon to see how it feels and operates.
I'll be sure to post how the Peterson's works.

xeo wrote:Spools can make locks easier as you can visually see where you are in the picking process. I'd suggest you get rid of them all and try it with regular pins. It will help you learn how to find binding pins better than spools since you can't visually see the plug turning with counter-rotation.

I'm resetting back to standards, as soon as I remember which locks I put them in and gut those...

HT4 wrote:Agreed, but I'd go a step farther.

I'd say to increase tension massively! When I pick a lock that I know is full of standard pins, I use very heavy tension... I'm talking about bowing a .050" prybar heavy. Heavy tension makes the setting pins very distinct, and usually binds multiple pins at a time, making picking much, much faster. This is particularly so with the slightly higher quality locks, like Sergeants. With heavy tension, they are just as easy as a Schlage. It can be a little rough on the picks, but it's the results that matter.

Good luck.

I've watched your videos, 1 through to 99, as well as the most recent ones, and I'm watching the remainder tonight or tomorrow :P
From what I can see in those videos you're using far heavier tension than I've ever used, but I feel that I've used nowhere near enough...
Looking forward to trying again and seeing how it turns out.
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Geir

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Post Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:49 pm

Re: Weird thing

So.. Received my Peterson picks today and I've tried them out on a range of locks.
My first impression holding them was they're so light! They're noticeably lighter than my Southord's.

The locks I've tested with were giving me trouble with my Southord's, the Peterson's took them down.
They actually give (IMO) much better feedback even though the S's are straight metal and no plastic handle.

If the next couple of days testing tells me the same thing, I'm ordering more picks from Peterson to have backups.
Oh, and I really like the quality of these picks!
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Mon Feb 29, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: Weird thing

Cool! I know it can be frustrating to wonder, "Is it ME or the TOOLS?!"

Nice to hear you like the new picks and the locks are poppin' & droppin' :D
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."

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