Would a medium hook be any more useful than the bogota entry

[subver]

Hey guys,
Relatively new picker here. I've made my own picks in the past but jsut recently bought the Bogota Titan Entry set from Serepick. I absolutely love them. I've already picked some locks I couldn't pick before.

Anyway, my question is: would a regular medium hook the same size as the bogota hook/diamond be any more useful? basically if I had another one of those tools with the tip shaved off..



I've been thinking of making some picks in similar shapes as these, but don't know if I should bother with a hook or not if I have this bogota. If not I guess I could do a longer hook.
Love these 2 picks, though! I don't do a lot of raking (but goot to have) but I especially love their size and how they can just sit in my wallet for emergencies.

I might make a tension wrench for the top of the keyhole (like the peterson prybar?) and another tool that I could also put in my wallet.

Thanks guys.. sorry if I rambled for a bit there

[ARF-GEF]

I think Bogotas generally not suitable to SPP. You can do it, but a hook is much better suited for that.
It will be uncomfortable to use the bogota "hook" (which is a single waved rake in my opinion) with hard key cuts and hard to reach pins.

But let me get it straight: Bogotas are the best rakes I know of. And just because I don't think they are suitable for SPP that doesn1t diminish their excellence. I think they are just not designed for SPP.

[subver]

Ok that makes sense. But isn't it basically the same shape as a hook, minus the extended curve that turns it into a rake/diamond sort of thing? One template I found the medium hook was the same size.

I'll have to find some wiper blades, though, and make a hook.

I have been SPPing with that bogota, it seems pretty good, but I really don't know, I'm still pretty new

[xeo]

Raking is considered to be a gimmick with respect to manipulating pin tumblers. It is just like using an electric pick gun or bump keys in my opinion. Not to sound arogant, but raking is generally considered to be a low-skill-required method. It is for quick, moderately effortless entry to low-medium security locks and has a chance to fail due to a number of elements such as the lock's bitting, security pins, countermilling, etc.

You should definitely get a short hook and learn how to single pin pick by manipulating each pin one by one. Why should you do this? Well bogota style rakes become absolutely useless on the more high security locks and if you devote all of your energy into using rakes you will be totally destroyed when you encounter a high security lock such as a Medeco/ASSA or anything with a sidebar or extra pins. Raking also doesn't work on locks with wild bittings, like a lock pinned to 909090. No matter how much raking you do you will never open the lock with a rake. Consider even a lock where the first pin closest to the plug face is a max depth cut you cannot disturb at all. You can rake all day and will never succeed. These kinds of setups require SPP and short/medium hooks.

I realize you can use the one-hump bogota entry tool as a sort of diamond pick, but a hook is much more precisely designed for SPP and gives you way more precision in what you're doing which you will need when you encounter the more difficult locks.

Learn SPP with a hook, you'll open FAR more locks.

[subver]

Thanks xeo. I just want to say, if it wasn't clear, that I don't like raking, and all I've been doing and practicing is single pin picking. I've been SPPing with the bogota half diamond.. my question was if a hook would be more effective for SPP, which it seems it is

So maybe I will make a short hook and medium hook? I've made a few picks before getting this bogota set which worked out good but I want to make something with similar sizes to these bogotas because I like how portable they are.

[xeo]

Make a typical short hook, and then make what is called a gem, it looks like this: , notice how the tip is slightly longer and pointed. These are perfect for locks with wild bittings. Also, make a half diamond, these are great for tight keyways. The only other shape I would recommend is a long "Sweep" pick that are designed for dealing with very crazy bittings where there are deep cuts up front and high cuts in the back. Between all of these tools, you'll have what you need to deal with any lock.

Oh, one more thing, the shaft of the pick. Notice how on commercial tools the shaft tapers down from thick to thin? Make a few hooks where the whole shaft is a constant thin height, this is perfect for dealing with very restrictive keyways.

For tensioners... make a top of keyway tensioner. Check out the Peterson Prybar from Peterson International... or take a regular typical tensioner and clip down the tip so it fits nicely in the top of the keyway and close to the lock face.

[subver]

Great, thanks! I do have a hook, diamond and "sweep" pick that I made a while back.. they actually are pretty good but I think I might make another set.. plus it's just so much fun.

One other question about hooks.. I have been looking at templates and some of the hooks are rounded and some are flat cut. Never really know which to make..
Any chance you have a good template? I'm not sure which one to choose..

[rerun12]

ive found that the diamond thats included in the bogota set to be better for raking than spp'ing, although i have spp'ed quite a few locks with it. its quite easy with to make a hook that will nest with the bogota set provided you have the right materials and tools, both of which are cheap as hell. ive done this myself to add to my "carry around set" (although i tend to not carry any picks outside of my house very often) along with some diff sized wiper inserts, bent to fit the bogotas, so i can make a tension wrench on the spot in the event i encounter a lock where TOK tension is needed.

buying my first set of bogotas and raking open locks is what really kept my interest in picking early on but as xeo said, the more you progress the more youll find that raking isnt going to work on every lock you encounter so honing your spp'ing skills is the way to go and a having a hook to pick with will help you with this greatly. as much as i love raking open a lock in seconds, ive found spp'ing to be more fun and challenging, and its kept my interest in this hobby because there are endless high security locks out there that cant be raked open.

but with all that said, raking with my first set of bogotas def helped me better understand proper tension and how important that is when trying to open any lock. the more i get into picking tougher locks the more i realize how correct tensioning is the real challenge when it comes to progression. at least for me

[subver]

THanks rerun. I really like SPP more than raking.. not really a fan of raking.. I got the set mainly to have something to carry in my wallet... but now realize I should probably have a hook instead of SPPing with that bogota half diamond.

I'll probably try to make a couple other tools that'll fit in my wallet as well.. not sure yet.. maybe the bogota set is good enough to have in an emergency.. I just like the idea of having essential tools on me at all times

[xeo]

Great, thanks! I do have a hook, diamond and "sweep" pick that I made a while back.. they actually are pretty good but I think I might make another set.. plus it's just so much fun.

One other question about hooks.. I have been looking at templates and some of the hooks are rounded and some are flat cut. Never really know which to make..
Any chance you have a good template? I'm not sure which one to choose..

Ahh.. the rounded vs flat debacle. Well that is personal preference. I prefer flat surface hooks. Why? They slip off the pins less, they provide a wider surface contact area which heightens feedback in my opinion and they are generally stronger, also my opinion. Try both, although I do recommend flat. You'll be touching rounded keypins... or other such pins... round touching round doesn't really seem too logical. You can also put a little notch in the tip of a flat hook, like a "cup" so the keypins actually sit right inside of it, this is great for rotating Medeco pins and helping you feel what you're touching with the pick.

[Oldfast]

Looks like there's not much I can add here, other than..... welcome Subver Glad you're here.

[subver]

Great, thanks! I do have a hook, diamond and "sweep" pick that I made a while back.. they actually are pretty good but I think I might make another set.. plus it's just so much fun.

One other question about hooks.. I have been looking at templates and some of the hooks are rounded and some are flat cut. Never really know which to make..
Any chance you have a good template? I'm not sure which one to choose..

Ahh.. the rounded vs flat debacle. Well that is personal preference. I prefer flat surface hooks. Why? They slip off the pins less, they provide a wider surface contact area which heightens feedback in my opinion and they are generally stronger, also my opinion. Try both, although I do recommend flat. You'll be touching rounded keypins... or other such pins... round touching round doesn't really seem too logical. You can also put a little notch in the tip of a flat hook, like a "cup" so the keypins actually sit right inside of it, this is great for rotating Medeco pins and helping you feel what you're touching with the pick.

Ah ok, perfect, thanks xeo. I might try filing down the hook I have at home to test. I've seen those cupped hooks, too.. maybe I'll try one of those one day.. but in the meantime I'll just do a small and medium hook, and also a TOK tension wrench (I've got regular tension wrenches).

I don't think I'll be hitting any high security locks anytime soon so a hook or two will probably be plenty for me for now

The only thing left that I'm debating is the size of the picks.. I'd love to fit them in my wallet but I'm sure feedback is better with longer picks.

[subver]

Looks like there's not much I can add here, other than..... welcome Subver Glad you're here.

Thanks so much

[subver]

And luckily I still have a big stack of stainless steel strips I bought from McMaster Carr... are windshield wiper inserts wide enough for good hooks, or only generally used for tension wrenches?

[Farmerfreak]

Great, thanks! I do have a hook, diamond and "sweep" pick that I made a while back.. they actually are pretty good but I think I might make another set.. plus it's just so much fun.

One other question about hooks.. I have been looking at templates and some of the hooks are rounded and some are flat cut. Never really know which to make..
Any chance you have a good template? I'm not sure which one to choose..

Ahh.. the rounded vs flat debacle. Well that is personal preference. I prefer flat surface hooks. Why? They slip off the pins less, they provide a wider surface contact area which heightens feedback in my opinion and they are generally stronger, also my opinion. Try both, although I do recommend flat. You'll be touching rounded keypins... or other such pins... round touching round doesn't really seem too logical. You can also put a little notch in the tip of a flat hook, like a "cup" so the keypins actually sit right inside of it, this is great for rotating Medeco pins and helping you feel what you're touching with the pick.

I used to prefer flat surfaced hooks. That was before I got used to picking with a gem.. I must admit that it is easier to pick locks with milder bittings faster with a flat surfaced hook.

Also, I've never found a use for the sweep hook.. A regular hook or gem with a thin shaft works better for me.

For the most part, what Xeo says (in this thread and elsewhere) is gold! As long as you can get a pick that manipulates one pin at a time without disturbing the others, you'll be good to go. The type of pick is just a matter of preference at that point.