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Re: Crime? if theres no law

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 6:47 pm
by Deadlock
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/24/james-boyd-killed-by-cops_n_5021117.html#slide=316320

This shooting even drew some attention on this side of the pond.

Re: Crime? if theres no law

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 8:27 pm
by Josephus
Deadlock wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/24/james-boyd-killed-by-cops_n_5021117.html#slide=316320

This shooting even drew some attention on this side of the pond.


Eight on one, assault rifles, shotguns, flashbangs, and a dog all for what? Some homeless guy off in the bush. The lack of honor is beyond extreme. Reminds me of something a k-9 officer near my home said to me after he left to do private work. He told me that, when there a bad cop not immediately arrested, that makes all the other cops that know him bad cops too. Anyway, my axe to grind is this self sacrifice and danger nonsense. Factory workers die more frequently than police or modern military personnel while getting a fraction of the compensation. Why does one group demand respect while the other one is looked down on? As for duty, remember police officers do not have any obligations to catch criminals, arrest law breakers, or prevent crime. Officers, nor departments, can be sued for being unwilling or unable to stop, prevent, or solve crime. All authority and no responsibility. It is just a job like any other, except they get to use live military equipment and violent force on a whim.

Re: Crime? if theres no law

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 9:05 pm
by squirrelcop
Josephus wrote:
Deadlock wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/24/james-boyd-killed-by-cops_n_5021117.html#slide=316320

This shooting even drew some attention on this side of the pond.


Eight on one, assault rifles, shotguns, flashbangs, and a dog all for what? Some homeless guy off in the bush. The lack of honor is beyond extreme. Reminds me of something a k-9 officer near my home said to me after he left to do private work. He told me that, when there a bad cop not immediately arrested, that makes all the other cops that know him bad cops too. Anyway, my axe to grind is this self sacrifice and danger nonsense. Factory workers die more frequently than police or modern military personnel while getting a fraction of the compensation. Why does one group demand respect while the other one is looked down on? As for duty, remember police officers do not have any obligations to catch criminals, arrest law breakers, or prevent crime. Officers, nor departments, can be sued for being unwilling or unable to stop, prevent, or solve crime. All authority and no responsibility. It is just a job like any other, except they get to use live military equipment and violent force on a whim.



Let me tell you about James Boyd, before you scoff this off as police murdering a poor homeless camper. James Boyd had a history of slashing up peoples faces with knives, had broken the nose of a police officer when he punched her in the face while resisting arrest. James Boyd was killed because he pulled out two knives in order to attack police who were attempting to lawfully arrest him. He had a history of assaulting police and attacking people with knives.

Re: Crime? if theres no law

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 9:07 pm
by LockManipulator
squirrelcop wrote:
Josephus wrote:
Deadlock wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/24/james-boyd-killed-by-cops_n_5021117.html#slide=316320

This shooting even drew some attention on this side of the pond.


Eight on one, assault rifles, shotguns, flashbangs, and a dog all for what? Some homeless guy off in the bush. The lack of honor is beyond extreme. Reminds me of something a k-9 officer near my home said to me after he left to do private work. He told me that, when there a bad cop not immediately arrested, that makes all the other cops that know him bad cops too. Anyway, my axe to grind is this self sacrifice and danger nonsense. Factory workers die more frequently than police or modern military personnel while getting a fraction of the compensation. Why does one group demand respect while the other one is looked down on? As for duty, remember police officers do not have any obligations to catch criminals, arrest law breakers, or prevent crime. Officers, nor departments, can be sued for being unwilling or unable to stop, prevent, or solve crime. All authority and no responsibility. It is just a job like any other, except they get to use live military equipment and violent force on a whim.



Let me tell you about James Boyd, before you scoff this off as police murdering a poor homeless camper. James Boyd had a history of slashing up peoples faces with knives, had broken the nose of a police officer when he punched her in the face while resisting arrest. James Boyd was killed because he pulled out two knives in order to attack police who were attempting to lawfully arrest him. He had a history of assaulting police and attacking people with knives.


Oh that totally justifies it. They had tasers and other alternatives to guns. He pulls out a knife so they pull out some guns? That's overkill and abuse of powers.

Re: Crime? if theres no law

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 9:34 pm
by squirrelcop
Daggers wrote:
squirrelcop wrote:
Josephus wrote:
Deadlock wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/24/james-boyd-killed-by-cops_n_5021117.html#slide=316320

This shooting even drew some attention on this side of the pond.


Eight on one, assault rifles, shotguns, flashbangs, and a dog all for what? Some homeless guy off in the bush. The lack of honor is beyond extreme. Reminds me of something a k-9 officer near my home said to me after he left to do private work. He told me that, when there a bad cop not immediately arrested, that makes all the other cops that know him bad cops too. Anyway, my axe to grind is this self sacrifice and danger nonsense. Factory workers die more frequently than police or modern military personnel while getting a fraction of the compensation. Why does one group demand respect while the other one is looked down on? As for duty, remember police officers do not have any obligations to catch criminals, arrest law breakers, or prevent crime. Officers, nor departments, can be sued for being unwilling or unable to stop, prevent, or solve crime. All authority and no responsibility. It is just a job like any other, except they get to use live military equipment and violent force on a whim.



Let me tell you about James Boyd, before you scoff this off as police murdering a poor homeless camper. James Boyd had a history of slashing up peoples faces with knives, had broken the nose of a police officer when he punched her in the face while resisting arrest. James Boyd was killed because he pulled out two knives in order to attack police who were attempting to lawfully arrest him. He had a history of assaulting police and attacking people with knives.



Oh that totally justifies it. They had tasers and other alternatives to guns. He pulls out a knife so they pull out some guns? That's overkill and abuse of powers.



I agree its shocking and I felt the same way when I first saw it. I would like to think I would have acted differently by utilized my less-lethal options first. Police are human beings and as human beings they have a desire for self preservation. I don't know how far away medical help was from them, but honestly, I wouldn't have risked being gutted if the nearest trauma center is hours away. Would you?
The bottom line is that James Boyd introduced a deadly threat into a lawful arrest and had an established history of violent attacks against police. Make no mistake, James Boyd had every intention of injuring or killing those officers.

Re: Crime? if theres no law

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 9:52 pm
by UnlockD
"Police officers sacrifice so much for you, while you sneer and hate them. "

I never asked ANYONE to sacrifice anything for me.
You're a cop, you need to understand your views are going to be biased.

Re: Crime? if theres no law

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 10:04 pm
by Josephus
Funny how if some average citizen makes a mistake, 'The law is the law.' they get arrested, go to jail, and are marked for life as a criminal. When police make a mistake, well they are only human after all, let it slide.

No, you want respect, you earn it. Defending instigators of an unnecessary death who use corpses as target practice and an attack dog's chew toy is not acceptable behavior.

Re: Crime? if theres no law

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 10:04 pm
by LockManipulator
squirrelcop wrote:
Daggers wrote:
squirrelcop wrote:
Josephus wrote:
Deadlock wrote:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/24/james-boyd-killed-by-cops_n_5021117.html#slide=316320

This shooting even drew some attention on this side of the pond.


Eight on one, assault rifles, shotguns, flashbangs, and a dog all for what? Some homeless guy off in the bush. The lack of honor is beyond extreme. Reminds me of something a k-9 officer near my home said to me after he left to do private work. He told me that, when there a bad cop not immediately arrested, that makes all the other cops that know him bad cops too. Anyway, my axe to grind is this self sacrifice and danger nonsense. Factory workers die more frequently than police or modern military personnel while getting a fraction of the compensation. Why does one group demand respect while the other one is looked down on? As for duty, remember police officers do not have any obligations to catch criminals, arrest law breakers, or prevent crime. Officers, nor departments, can be sued for being unwilling or unable to stop, prevent, or solve crime. All authority and no responsibility. It is just a job like any other, except they get to use live military equipment and violent force on a whim.



Let me tell you about James Boyd, before you scoff this off as police murdering a poor homeless camper. James Boyd had a history of slashing up peoples faces with knives, had broken the nose of a police officer when he punched her in the face while resisting arrest. James Boyd was killed because he pulled out two knives in order to attack police who were attempting to lawfully arrest him. He had a history of assaulting police and attacking people with knives.



Oh that totally justifies it. They had tasers and other alternatives to guns. He pulls out a knife so they pull out some guns? That's overkill and abuse of powers.



I agree its shocking and I felt the same way when I first saw it. I would like to think I would have acted differently by utilized my less-lethal options first. Police are human beings and as human beings they have a desire for self preservation. I don't know how far away medical help was from them, but honestly, I wouldn't have risked being gutted if the nearest trauma center is hours away. Would you?
The bottom line is that James Boyd introduced a deadly threat into a lawful arrest and had an established history of violent attacks against police. Make no mistake, James Boyd had every intention of injuring or killing those officers.


I really can't say how I would've acted in that situation since I haven't been in one like that. But in my mind, a taser stops someone quite effectively. I've never heard of or seen someone keep walking while being tased. I'm not saying he was innocent and all but I don't believe anyone deserves to die just like that and if someone threatened me with a knife, I would much rather tase them than kill them.

Re: Crime? if theres no law

PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 10:44 pm
by rerun12
as someone who has run across, even had dealings with way back when, many an unethical cop..i will say this: they have very tough jobs and most (assuming they're honest cops) make very little money when you consider what they deal with on a day to day basis. i have more reason to dislike police than most, but even having said that i think we should all respect what it is they do. however exciting this point in history we live in may be, it drives me mad how polarized this country has become on such a wide range of issues. cops are human; some bad, some good. if someone where to hurt or kill one of my family members or friends i appreciate the fact that i can at least put some trust in them doing their jobs and bringing bad people to justice (however you might define justice). id rather call the police if something terrible happened to a loved one instead of having to murder somebody and spend the rest of my life in a concrete box.

Re: Crime? if theres no law

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 12:43 am
by nsquidc
Daggers wrote:how I would've acted in that situation since I haven't been in one like that. But in my mind, a taser stops someone quite effectively. I've never heard of or seen someone keep walking while being tased. I'm not saying he was innocent and all but I don't believe anyone deserves to die just like that and if someone threatened me with a knife, I would much rather tase them than kill them.


I ran as an EMT in Houston back in the day and we were often called as medical back-up for cases involving suspects resisting arrest. I remember this dude who was hopped up on PCP or cocaine that took a taser, pepper spray, and then three large officers to finally bring him down. I watched this entirely from the safety of the ambulance, and didn't envy the boys on the ground one bit. Luckily, he wasn't armed, and the officers brought him down with only bruises and scratches to show for it.

Tasers, pepper spray, mace, etc... all have their place, but they are far from being effective for a quick stop. Most require at least several, if not tens of seconds before incapacitation. If a suspect had a firearm or a knife, I would seriously doubt the effectiveness in a taser stopping an assailant before they got off one or two good swipes. (I've also seen people seriously injured by these "less" lethal options, generally because of unknown pre-existing medical conditions. There's no perfect thing.)

I don't know the specifics of this case, and I do know that there are numerous cases of excessive force / police brutality out there. All I'm saying is that not everything is as black and white, "us vs them", as we'd like it to be.

Cheers,

NSC

Re: Crime? if theres no law

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 2:34 pm
by rai
squirril
My hat has a combat medic badge on it, from 68 or 69 first of the twentieth infantry, months after the My Lai massacre.
there were some evil people in that unit and some good ones. it was fucked up like many police departments that have no code of ethics that is practiced.
Im disgusted by thugs with attitudes and no respect for constitutional rights.
Im a patriot, I believe in the Bill of Rights. Its the social contract. disregard it and your authority is just that of an armed and dangerous man. you answer to no laws when you think people should be abused and hold somolia as an example or excuse for what you think
Homeland security purchased more bullets in 2012 than the US Army did. do you think there are that many people who can be conveniently called terrorists? its obvious they feel that they need to be armed enough to wipe out the whole population.
The government is a criminal organization when it ignores the constitution and establishes lethal " authorities ' never mentioned in the constitution except for the bill of rights which is intended to limit the arbitrary thuggery that does in fact occur.
You are from a small group that has too much power and no effective oversight by the people and their democracy.
You cannot be fired or voted out. you can abuse people and steal property and answer to no one.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/04 ... rson-than/

police state, no respect for bill of rights.
Not a single person in the DHS was elected or could be voted out. its lethal authority with no democracy of the people to answer to.

Re: Crime? if theres no law

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 2:57 pm
by Deadlock
[quote="nsquidc"]

Tasers, pepper spray, mace, etc... all have their place, but they are far from being effective for a quick stop. Most require at least several, if not tens of seconds before incapacitation. If a suspect had a firearm or a knife, I would seriously doubt the effectiveness in a taser stopping an assailant before they got off one or two good swipes.
/quote]

I don't understand what you're saying here. Both tear gas and Tasers work immediately, there's no waiting around. Sure, if you spray someone in the face with Mace or whatever, they won't be threading any sewing needles, but they could still grab you or hit you if you were close enough. But if you shoot them with a Taser? No. If the guy in your story was hit with a Taser and he could still fight off three cops, he wasn't hit with a Taser.

Re: Crime? if theres no law

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:38 pm
by nsquidc
Deadlock wrote:...But if you shoot them with a Taser? No. If the guy in your story was hit with a Taser and he could still fight off three cops, he wasn't hit with a Taser.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avAH49NY_iY&t=2m6s

Usually true, but not always. Depends upon a number of things, including the tolerance of the individual. Note, this guy wasn't even on any drugs such as PCP or cocaine. You'll be surprised what the human body is capable of when hopped up.

Again, I'm not justifying the situation in question, which I have no information about. Just making a very specific point about the limitations of tasers and pepper spray.

Cheers,

NSC

Re: Crime? if theres no law

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:08 pm
by huxleypig
All I can go on is my own personal experience with the cops. They are self serving corporate whores with terrible attitudes.

Re: Crime? if theres no law

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 11:13 pm
by xeo
huxleypig wrote:All I can go on is my own personal experience with the cops. They are self serving corporate whores with terrible attitudes.


That is my experience as well.