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The terrorists have won! they had help from the tame media and all our politicians.
we have lost part of our freedom to the police state and the bill of rights is in decline
What more could the terrorists have wanted, our hollowed out democracy has given it to them.

terrorism is the most asymetrical of guerilla wars, there were only two chechnyan guys in boston, they killed two people and maimed a number of others, and the police state won. freedom always loses.

do we want terrorists caught, sure, like any other serial or mass killer, we have investigators who can do that very well, and some who just find a patsy to pin it on because they are incompetent or conspiratorial, think of richard jewel or lee oswald,

Should the entire population be treated as suspects to prevent what are in fact tiny attacks? you are in much greater danger of injury or death crossing the street.

Is opaque govenment ever a democracy? who owns my harddrive whos gonna pay rent for all those cookies that I never had the option of refusing, surveilance used to be expensive difficult and uncommon, now its lucrative, easy and ubiquitous. we are told we have to accept this.

If its ok to record all phone calls, and if its possible, it will be done in secret, and we will be told by the masked people behind the curtain to trust them.
I do not trust them to preserve the bill of rights, the supreme court has already eliminated the 8th and 9th and tenth amendment.
Jon Oliver was onto something when he suggested the gun phone, if its ok to tap all phone calls but not ok to register guns, we just need phones that shoot bullets to prevent being routinely recorded.

Terrorism can only achieve small results by its attacks, there are only a very few terrorists, their object is to permanently change the society they attack for the worse. they have won. with help from media, politicians and the police state.

Wow. That's scary, but actually makes sense.
"When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny." -Thomas Jefferson

You forgot to mention a complacent populace.

Of course, this will attract a wide range of opinions, all with the valid justifications, but for me the real issue lays with Gringo's comment. It also reminded me of something The Dalai Lama once said:

If you really think you are too small to make a difference, then try sleeping in a room with a mosquito.

HA! Now that's a truth! The point being, if you feel you're rights are being violated, show the aggressor that in a true democracy, you are the power. And if that's not the case, become the power.

I'm not an American, so according to the reports, I have less say on what degree the American government can snoop on me. In my case, I'm baffled as to what I can really do about it. So, from the point of view of being powerless, I'm really up shit creek, but from the point of view of making a change, that lays at the feet of the American people. I believe that's the essence of a true democracy.

If everyone (jokingly but serious) during every telephone conversation said: "allahu akbar" "suicide-bomb" "kill kill kill" etc...

I bet it would make their spying job a bit harder especially if the masses did this, they would have to sort through all the BS then...

Rai the real spies are the commercial interests that follow your browsing habits, know what you eat from your supermarket points card, know what you buy from your credit and bank cards, know your finances from the credit bureau, know your politics and opinions from forums etc etc, and then package all that information for sale. They have your picture from drivers licences and facebook as well as knowing who your friends are. Of course the spy agencies have all this and more.

I agree that the public is complacent and too accepting of all this, but perhaps its because they realize that privacy for most of us is a myth. These revelations about phone record tracking are not shocking because we all knew it was happening anyway - with or without enabling laws.

As for Canadians and others who think they are immune, good luck. Canada's CSEC (our NSA) has been in bed with all the other western intelligence agencies since WWII. In fact the NSA used Canadian listening posts to monitor the U.S. when they still followed the law. And they monitored Canadian communications in return. That way neither breached their own laws against domestic wiretapping. This game is still played today, and includes the powerful British GCHQ. It is no accident that along with the NSA building a massive new complex in Utah, GCHQ has built a giant new headquarters as has the Canadian CSEC in Ottawa.

It is not really about the war on terrorism, although Bush and company used 9/11 as an excuse to broaden monitoring and other laws, it is just a natural result of our reliance on electronic communication. If the information is there the government will find a way to access it. And when (not if) some Hitler type gains power he will have absolute control over the world population. Hell, even in countries where food and water are scarce they have cell phones and internet. Perhaps we will all become soldiers in the great revolt, opening locks for the revolutionary army.

There is a very similar thread going on at lp101 too.
(I've always found it a bit of a nuisance when these 2 "sister forums" had the same topic. I was always wondering where should I post since I did not want to repeat myself Usually first come first "served" )
http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=57298

I know good and reasonable people who would gladly give up their privacy for a bit of extra safety (or convenience, or supermarket points). And I get the impulse to just turn on the teevee and let the NSA worry about protecting the homeland.

Personally, I think we should all be wary any time a lot of power or personal information accumulates in one place. Even great institutions with unimpeachable missions are made up of individuals. And we should expect that individuals will often take more than they should -- advantage, liberties, money, etc. If collectively we don't have the mental energy to watch the watchmen, then maybe they shouldn't have the key to the mansion.

@Gringo,
good institutions are eventualy taken over by corrupt people who will use them to their own ends. it happens every time, the supreme court is reducing the bill of rights with every decision because it inhibits the convenience of the policestate
That Clapper guy head of NSA lied to congress serially from the interviews before his appointment to just a few weeks before the snowdon revelations, then he pops up to say they are only collecting metadata not content on the phone calls but he has no credibility, hes a liar and we know it.
If all that metadata was so important, how did the tsarneves of boston succeed?
Maybe the terrorists, I mean the ones who commit the violence, not those who sell the fear,(media) or pass unconstitutional laws like FISA
maybe these guys suspected all along that the opaque govenment was recording all digital transactions and knows what grocerys are in their refridgerator.
Seems like the only people the government lies to are its own citizens, like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed manure.
Clapper says his bigbrother machine has caught many terrorists, but he cant name one, hes a known liar.

This is scary stuff, but true too! A lot of good points on here, especially the ones about private companies collecting data for "loyalty" crap. There are hardly any laws regarding what companies can collect, and what they can do with it. If a store wants your phone number, or email say no, if they want to scan your ID, say no!

I was in a Best Buy and had them offer me the ""rewards" card, and when they asked for a phone number, I gave them my old tracfone number. Lo and behold, some random lady's name, addy, and SSN came up, along with a lot of other info, i then told the clerk I didn't want the card. they have no legal right to have this info! What happens when they upgrade computers? do the old hard drives get wiped, or do they auction off the whole system data and all? Give the old PC's to employees, perhaps?

Also, those product registration cards that want info on what you buy and how much you make, it's not going to the manufacturer, it's going to a data miner in Colorado! If you wouldn't give the info to a stranger, why give it to a store for them to do whatever with?

Unfortunately, with the government, you have to give them info sometimes, and pray they do the right thing.

Phoneman, considering the latest revelations your name too shines in a different light...
(joking of course )

Here in the UK the government are paying billions to make us the most surveilled internet on the planet. The recent revelations about MI5 using software from the America to spy yet further is no surprise. Whilst the mass internet snooping will be lawful it does not make it right. Furthermore they continue to illegally wiretap anyway!

And ALL of it has been rode into power on the back of a 'terrorism' horse that simply doesn't exist. Just like the illegal Iraq war and our shameless invasion of Afghanistan. The terrorism crap is currently being promoted to a large degree in the UK again at the moment. I suspect there is an insidious reason to it. What bothers me the most is that it is all so painfully obvious but the populous just seem to swallow it up. Or maybe they don't want to see past the bollocks?

Then there is the cynical selling of information around corporations. Data is the most valuable commodity with the growth of the internet and it should be being protected like never before. Unfortunately it is not and even if the governments had the will to do something about it (which I do not believe), the machinations of law making will simply never be able to keep up.

Not to open a huge can of worms here but I think people need to stop and reanalyze who the actual terrorists are.

+1000

Gordon

Hux:

Your GCHQ is as big and as powerful as the NSA. The success of Ultra and Purple, (the German and Japanese code info) aided in winning WWII, and ever since these entities have grown in size and ability to the point where they really can do just about anything. Canada, New Zealand and Australia are right behind, but with much smaller budgets. They are all tied together and monitor every important communication in the world, but with the end of the cold war they needed a new justification for their existence (and massive budgets). Hence the "War on terror", which unfortunately now, in their minds at least, requires listening in on every citizen, even their own.
Sometimes this ability is useful, as in tracking the cell phone that led to the killing of Bin Laden. Other times they just listen to the late Lady Di's affairs and God knows what else. Even the politicians fear these guys and they really are a law onto themselves, mostly because they are so good at their job. "Do what you have to do, but don't tell us how you do it" is the order of the day. And of course that is the real reason they want to hang this recent whistle blower - he did the unthinkable and exposed their dirty little secret.
Listen to the Director of the NSA on C-Span and you could almost believe him. They only eavesdrop with court approval. "If the conversation involves domestic issues we call the FBI!" "We don't store the content on the communication, only the meta data."
Right! That is why they have just built the largest data base and computer facility in the world, in Utah. That's why the budgets of GCHQ and the NSA are larger than MI 5/6 and the CIA respectively.

At least the public is becoming aware of these organizations and some of their secrets are coming out in the open, thanks to authors like Richard Aldrich ("GCHQ"), and James Bamford who wrote the book on the NSA ("The Puzzle Palace" and several follow-up books). Plus the recent revelations by Edward Snowden. Maybe, by bringing these secrets out in the open we will force accountability on the watchers, for they hate the light.