FAQ  •  My feedback  •  Feedback
UKLockpickers.co.uk Lockpicking supplies such as Lockpicks, tools, and more! COMMANDOLOCK.COM Military grade padlock systems lockpickshop.com A source for lockpicking supplies such as lockpicks, locksmith tools, and more!

Virtual Safe WheelPak Anyone??

<<

klynch212

Familiar Face

Posts: 21

Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:21 pm

Location: New York, Tucson AZ (snowbird)

Post Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:22 pm

Virtual Safe WheelPak Anyone??

Hi Hello
I posted this question a while ago in the Safe/Combination Forum .......No answer
I hadn't noticed the Computer Geeks Forum So let me try it here.

What I'm looking for is a "Virtual Visual Safe" & wheel pack that emulates the mechanical wheels in a 3 or 4 wheel safe

I recently built a cutaway it works well enough but a vitual unit would avoid having to cut up a good lock
I've seen some automated wheel pack demos, but they don't allow normal operation of the dial by by hand.
The most useful would be an arrangement that minimally allowed the user to control the dial and combination
while observing wheel interaction

Maybe someone knows of such an emulator or perhaps its part of a game or puzzle
I've seen several "safe cracker games" and emulations but most usually relie on the stethoscope clicks
and don't really emulate or serve as a usable manipulation trainer. I have seen one that actually included random
mechanical problems (frozen flys and drivers ) even allowed a drilling to open or observe the combination with a bore scope
but still not useful for manipulation, and was written and encrypted for a DOS box so not so useful in the 21'st century.

If only I were younger and still fluent in one of the more visual languages I'd write it myself
(just may anyway) But consider it a free idea for an useful AP (Android or PC would be good)

Any thoughs comments?
Thanks for reading my post
KJL
<<

mastersmith

User avatar

Contributor
Contributor

Posts: 499

Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 10:16 pm

Location: Miami Township, Ohio

Post Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:08 pm

Re: Virtual Safe WheelPak Anyone??

I'm actually a computer idiot, and as such am of no help what so ever in making this. But I do know a bit about manipulation and I see one thing that I would consider a big problem. The developement of "touch" is the thing that makes manipulation possible. I'm not sure how this tactile sense could be transmitted through the virtual world of the program, to the real world of the dialers fingers. Without that I'm not sure you could really learn how to manipulate. As earlier stated, this is not my strong suit. I would be interested in seeing if this has possibilties.
"All ye who come this art to see / to handle anything must cautious be...." Benjamin Franklin
<<

Jaakko Fagerlund

Active Member

Posts: 258

Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:55 pm

Location: Finland

Post Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:48 am

Re: Virtual Safe WheelPak Anyone??

As mastersmith explained, there's no force feedback which is essential for manipulation. The closest to this is my electronic manipulation assistant which has a rotary encoder and I can see the whole wheel pack state on computer screen if necessary.
<<

klynch212

Familiar Face

Posts: 21

Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:21 pm

Location: New York, Tucson AZ (snowbird)

Post Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:13 pm

Re: Virtual Safe WheelPak Anyone??

Hi hello
I'm still a rank amateur as far as actual manipulation goes,
I appreciate your comments and please bare with me if I've really got it wrong

Presently I'm only personally familiar with the common S&G spring fence type locks
But when you refer to force feedback I assume you mean outside the CPA.
Since the cam lifts the fence off the wheel-pac very little diect wheel feedback.
The "force feedback" there, (outside CPA) is wheel drag and driver/fly contacting each other .

I was thinking simply a beep at each fly contact and possibly "n" consecutive beeps for
multiple wheel/fly pickups. (3 beeps means you just picked up a total of 3 wheels)

Again maybe I'm missing the significance of sensitivity but aren't we really just looking
for the number of fly contact impacts in a given direction. (at a time) Its really a binary detection
of contacts made in a given direction
(more contacts picked up = more wheel drag = more force feedback)

I don't see the need for much feedback sensitivity, you either detect a fly pickup or not,
It could give almost the same amount of info to the brain via ear or screen.
Beep = contact, Number of beeps = force feedback
Granted It wouldn't feel the same to the fingertips

When I read about or watch the process of manipulation it seems to me
the most important part is accurate CPA measurement and data recording
Two additional different pitch beeps for LCP and RCP could be a nice touch.

I guess you could include fuctions to
"generate a new proper combination" function
"use Lagard type oval wheels fuction"
"use 4 wheels"
"map Graph 1"
"map Graph 2"
any Requests????

and a lot of fun stuff
Thanks
KJL
<<

mastersmith

User avatar

Contributor
Contributor

Posts: 499

Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 10:16 pm

Location: Miami Township, Ohio

Post Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:46 am

Re: Virtual Safe WheelPak Anyone??

you're missing it a bit. Fly contacts are used for counting the number of wheels, that's it. When manipulating you are looking for differences in the "drop in area", which means changes in the range of 1/8th of a number, as the fence nose drops further into the drive cam. Without feeling the contact exactly, you will never discerne those subtle changes.
"All ye who come this art to see / to handle anything must cautious be...." Benjamin Franklin
<<

klynch212

Familiar Face

Posts: 21

Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:21 pm

Location: New York, Tucson AZ (snowbird)

Post Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:15 am

Re: Virtual Safe WheelPak Anyone??

Wow!!
I had written a very lengthy response which defended fly contacts as a navigational tool
deduced that no 1/8 dial point sensivity is ever needed outside the CPA
(because the cam lifts the fence off the wheel-pak anyway)

I then also realized "normally" you set a wheel to a value then reverse direction just before you enter the CPA.

Since you havent picked up a wheel so there is only CAM rotation but not wheel rotation the within the CPA
(Even though the fence is now sitting on the wheel-pak) The information comes from nose depth inferred from
the LCP RCP and not the now non-moving wheels themselves

I came full circle to agree with you! Its really only about how accurately and precisely you read CPs!!
I think all the movies with people using a stethascope and sandpapered fingertips made me believe there
was some hidden knowledge where you are actually hearing and feeling the rise and fall of the height of the
wheel-pak or feel the variation of the torsion as the wheel turned.
While I now feel its totally about reading the same value from the same CPs both precisely and accurately

I'm also starting to understand why the rules for picking valid combinations recommend at least 10 digits between
adjacent combo numbers. I'm also glad I added a 0.1 division vernier to improve my manipulations.
Thanks, you helped me to an epiphany!

As far as the emulation I'll have to rethink the "how" but I think a long as the generated virtual wheel-pak
is accurate, A percentage randomization of the input device could be made to emulate a user with beginner,
intermediate and expert skill levels, I don't think there's really that much feedback issue. Accuracy is key
and then added randomization equates to skill level.

thanks again
One too many.... time to crash,

KJL

Return to HAL 3000 - Computer Geeks

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot], mdc5150

Don't forget to visit our sponsors for all of your lockpicking needs!
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Grop
"CA Black" theme designed by stsoftware