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pick guns!

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crashedup

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Post Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:02 pm

pick guns!

hello i am a total newbe at picking and decided to start with pick guns ,I know many of you are against guns but i work for a private investigator and often need to open locks fast! thats why i decided to go the pick gun rout. except i am having problems with any lock that seems to have security pins in them, the gun i have is from deal extrem not exactly high quality could that be one of my problems? would an electric gun help in anyway?
when i slack of the tension wrench i always hear several pins drop back down , so im assuming there is like probably one or maybe two security pins that are blocking me. Is it actually posible to just use a pick gun for security pins or do you need to manually pick them after the false set?
Any help here would be much appreciated thank you.
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LocksmithArmy

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Post Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:08 pm

Re: pick guns!

what locks are you picking... i doubt they have security pins... pick guns just arnt reliable. yes they will open some locks but that does not meen they are faster, if you are lucky they can be faster... a security pin will jump above the shear line just as easy as a non security pin if you have no tension on the lock... click ithe gun then apply tension, then release and start again... (all in rapid succession)

if your getting a false set it would me much faster to pick your way out of it than try and pick gun it again... cause youd have to release all your tension again... you should learn to pick... pick guns are less reliable and simply dont work and are often not faster than real picks...
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KokomoLock

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Post Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:22 pm

Re: pick guns!

If you are going for more reliable quick entry without really learning to pick go for a Bogota. Something like this http://www.serepick.com/products.html. Seem to work quicker and on more locks than the pick gun.
Last edited by KokomoLock on Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Solomon

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Post Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:33 pm

Re: pick guns!

Like LSA said, if the lock isn't dropping into a false set then security pins aren't the problem, you're just not using the gun properly. They take practice to use and there is a knack to using it.

1. The needle has to be parallel to the pins, making light contact with all of them but not actually pushing them upwards. You also have to be careful not to insert it too far otherwise you'll be striking the back of the lock - and if my physics is right, then a good deal of the energy which is supposed to be transferred to the pins will be lost. If you just stick it all the way in, you'd need to increase the snap to compensate and this would lead to broken needles. Being able to judge how far to insert it is important, and since you've never picked a lock before this won't come naturally to you.

2. The needle must be angled correctly to make proper contact with the pins, otherwise you'll just be striking against the warding.

3. You need to use feather light tension on the plug, I'm talking hardly any at all here. Again, since you've got no picking experience, you're probably using far too much. If you're using even just a little too much, pins will overset, which sounds like what's happening... or if you use way too much tension then you're gonna have one pin binding heavily and nothing else can set at all.

If the lock has security pins, you can't just hold light tension and snap away like with regular pins, because you'll just get locked in a false set. With security pins you need to snap once and apply torque a split second later, which is very tricky but I've opened a few spooled locks with mine so it is possible.

4. You will often need to adjust the snap tension for the lock; if all the other factors are in place but the snap just isn't high enough to overcome the spring bias, you're not gonna get anywhere. It's important to know when, and by how much. Too low and the drivers won't clear the shear line, too high and you'll have a much harder time opening anything at all... not to mention it won't be long till your needles are all broken. Since you got the cheapest and crappiest pick gun available, not only will the needles break, but the whole internals will start snapping and rattling around aswell.

If you work for a PI and you need a pick gun for work, you shouldn't be buying cheapo stuff off DX. You need something which is a lot better quality, and in all honesty you'd be better off with an EPG anyway as manual pick guns are a lot more fiddly to work with. If you really want a snap gun, go with brockhage or at least southord.
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crashedup

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Location: canada

Post Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:13 pm

Re: pick guns!

I forgot to mention I have been at this for a few weeks and that i am able to open several locks but only the rather cheap ones like master locks # 1 -3 ." havent tried other number masters". some cheap deadbolts no problem and even to my surprise an abus high security padlock pretty easily.
one that i have been trying to get for a while is a brinks padlock on the package it said it had spool pins I got it open once but i think i was just lucky.
also a schlage dead bolt with no luck
I didnt get an expensive gun to start with because I wasent shure if i would be able to master the skill.
I just dont understand how come I open the master lock #3 and some cheaper 5 pin dead bolts in like 5 seconds but the slightly higher end locks no luck what so ever. So i was just wondering if its just my skill that isnt there yet, or maybe my snap gun is too cheap or my tools arnt right like my tension wrench.
I saw on youtube about the wrenches sometimes binding , how can i tell it mine is binding?
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the lockpickkid

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Post Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:24 pm

Re: pick guns!

If you don't make an effort in trying to understand the inside and outs of locks, picking and using a pick gun are not going to work with you. You will get lucky and open some locks, but do you know how you did it? NO. I have a good pickgun, I never use it, I think the last time I used it was a last resort attempt and only then it was amazing that I remembered that I still had the thing. Buy you some good picks and practice, we will help you on this site with any questions that you have.
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sandman

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Post Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:40 pm

Re: pick guns!

better locks just have tighter tolerances, like lsa said, its doubtful there are high security locks, its most likely there are master pins that you hear droping.

i have seen several, i say again, several professional locksmiths use only, i say again, only pick guns, and it works for them. but 8 outta 10 locksmiths, would prefer single pin picking or rake picking. in the end, it doesnt matter what you use, it matters on how well you have mastered your chosen technique. just like martial arts, and guns. there is no such thing as 'the best martial art' or the 'best gun'. it only matters how well youve adapted yourself to that desired situation, martial art, gun, lock picks, pick gun, ect.

if your set on using a pick gun, get a BETTER pick gun, and keep practicing.
i have been picking locks for 3 years and im still a beginner. others pick locks for a few months, and they can pick much better than me. everyone has there threshold, where when they hit it, things just click, and they are insinc with what they are trying to achieve. give it time, get better materials. and keep practicing.

but take kokomolocks advice, buy a bogata pick or rake picks,
keep up with it, it is a skill that takes lots and lots of practice. and learn ALL the techniquest that are available to you should one fail.
good luck!
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LocksmithArmy

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Post Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:06 pm

Re: pick guns!

from the list of locks you have and have not opened id say your tension is the issue... schlage has better tolerances therefor need less tension... and yes brinks has spools... less tension or no tension till after the click of the gun.

bogotas are great.
http://www.locksmitharmy.com/serepick.php
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crashedup

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Location: canada

Post Sat Nov 13, 2010 4:42 pm

Re: pick guns!

ok well here is a little update on my picking.
All master locks that i have gotten a hold of I can open with my snap pick gun
and all 4 pin master padlocks I can open manually picking them ,starting to get the feel of it.
Its even faster raking them then using the pick gun lol
Still no luck on the brinks padlock and schlage deadbolt starting to get a little frustrated !
The abus padlock that i am opening with ease is the N 90/50 opens in 2 clicks with the pick gun , I checked the specs on it and it is a 5 pin with mushroom pins, still havent gotten it open manually however.
The pick kit I have is a pretty good quality but Im not shure if I have all the picks that are needed
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Solomon

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Post Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:26 pm

Re: pick guns!

Raking is generally much faster than a pick gun, yes... after all with the gun you need to adjust the snap tension a lot of the time and also have to keep re-tightening the screw which holds the needle in place. Not to mention there is no feedback with the gun, you have no idea what's going on inside the lock so you're only adjusting it based on the fact that it hasn't opened after x amount of clicks. They'll open most stuff that raking won't, but raking would definately be my first choice :D

If a lock has a nice even or stair-step bitting then it will rake open relatively quickly regardless of security pins or tolerances (providing you have good technique)... locks which have been in regular use for years will often pop in a matter of seconds, of course this can happen with brand new ones aswell but generally the older and looser it is, the easier it'll give up.

To be fair the gun will open most stuff in a couple of mins max, or even with just a few snaps if you're lucky, but it's a good idea to try raking for a short while first. I have a pile of locks here which rake open in just a couple of seconds, no exagerration... and they're a pain in the ass to open with the gun, so yeah... definately try raking first. :mrgreen:
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Dopug

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Location: United kingdom

Post Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:28 pm

Re: pick guns!

I'm a bit new to this forum so probably not my place to be commenting, but feel i have to.

If your a PI why does that mean you need to open locks fast? Only reason i can think of is that you need to get into places you shouldnt be going, and with out permission.

I don't know what the policy is here but do you really want this guy sniffing through you private stuff? sounds moody to me
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chris

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Post Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:47 pm

Re: pick guns!

No actually Dopug I would think you are right, PI's don't have the same rights as Police Officers, or officers of the court. Even those need a warrant to get in somewhere. As far as I know, PI's cannot get warrants obviously.
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Dopug

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Post Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:48 pm

Re: pick guns!

here's a quote www.ehow.com regarding PI's in america, the law's pretty much the same in the UK

"Private investigators are not authorized in most states to carry guns without a license and they generally have to follow the same gun laws that apply to private citizens. Even with a license, private investigators are not allowed to kick in your door, and unlike the police, they are not issued search warrants that give them the right to do so"

And carrying a pick gun is illegal in most places to
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chris

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Post Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:06 pm

Re: pick guns!

Yeah I thought that was the case. Thanks for the quote.
Naaapaalm...sticks to kids...it sticks to the belly and it sticks to the ribs...
See those kids standing by the lake...drop some napalm and watch them bake.
Naaapaalm...sticks to kids...it sticks to the belly and it sticks to the ribs.

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