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An email I received today: "Gun control push begins"

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elbowmacaroni

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Post Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:13 am

Re: An email I received today: "Gun control push begins"

echoplot wrote:Since we're on the topic....
For anyone interested, at the risk of sounding like I'm whoring out my photo work (and I totally am :razz: ), I started a firearms photoshoot a while back. Haven't finished the whole thing, but here's one piece that came out of it.

IMG_1099-edit-2-1-3.JPG



I sure would like that image a damn lot too, if it were lit better...
"Cave ab homine unius libri" - Beware of anyone who has just one book

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(2014.02.09 - 23:27:37) huxleypig: aww, i suddenly feel very sick

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(22:59:49) PhoneMan: how do you let a forum die if users keep using it? kill the servers?

May those who love us, love us; and those who don't love us, may God turn their hearts; and if He doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles so we'll know them by their limping

If someone had prince albert in a can, does that mean they'd have a killer codpiece?

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elbowmacaroni

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Post Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:22 am

Re: An email I received today: "Gun control push begins"

The commerce clause... the spigot from which all sorts of effluvium of governmental regulation and control they were never intended to be able to wield flows... Most of even criminal law these days can find it's basis in the UCC... quite fucked up and scary really. Not to mention that the government trades/sells our SSNs as bond on chattel (us being the chattel. Agina very fucked up and way against anything intended by the framers.)

I better stop before I get all pissed off and go on mega rant 6000.


-Elbow :akimbo:
"Cave ab homine unius libri" - Beware of anyone who has just one book

(2014.02.09 - 23:26:03) huxleypig: i freaking love cream
(2014.02.09 - 23:27:11) huxleypig: hey, come on, cream is nice
(2014.02.09 - 23:27:37) huxleypig: aww, i suddenly feel very sick

(23:37:46) LocksmithArmy: you should see my school girl outfit
(23:37:50) LocksmithArmy: wait... what

(13:19:50) xeo: that chick will never be satisfied by a real dick
(13:19:54) NNFAK: I would man...

(22:59:49) PhoneMan: how do you let a forum die if users keep using it? kill the servers?

May those who love us, love us; and those who don't love us, may God turn their hearts; and if He doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles so we'll know them by their limping

If someone had prince albert in a can, does that mean they'd have a killer codpiece?

(00:52:02) WolfSpring: elbow could sell a sandbox to an egyptian
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elbowmacaroni

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Post Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:28 am

Re: An email I received today: "Gun control push begins"

MBI wrote:Just imagine a world, where we had no individual right of speech, or religion. Where we had no right against unreasonable search and seizure and the police could search or detain you, for no reason, for any duration they felt like as long as they did it do you as an individual and not as a part of a larger group. Where you had no right against self-incrimination, or where if you were found not guilty in a trial, the prosecutor could simply retry you over and over and over, until he got the verdict he wanted. Just imagine if all of these rights only applied to you in a collective sense as a part of a larger (legally recognized) group, and gave you no personal protections whatsoever. With that in mind, do you REALLY think the second amendment, unlike all the rest, they didn't intend to be applied to individuals?



Distressingly, we don't have to imagine... it's already here... in most cases very selectively enforced or procedurally followed, but it is all gone. It is just a footnote of our history for politicians to wave around and pretend as if it still means anything or applies to this country in any way anymore.

As for the presumption of innocence... well, in Louisiana, you are presumed guilty and the burden of proof is on you the accused! Fucking french commonlaw basis for that state's legal system as opposed to english common law.
"Cave ab homine unius libri" - Beware of anyone who has just one book

(2014.02.09 - 23:26:03) huxleypig: i freaking love cream
(2014.02.09 - 23:27:11) huxleypig: hey, come on, cream is nice
(2014.02.09 - 23:27:37) huxleypig: aww, i suddenly feel very sick

(23:37:46) LocksmithArmy: you should see my school girl outfit
(23:37:50) LocksmithArmy: wait... what

(13:19:50) xeo: that chick will never be satisfied by a real dick
(13:19:54) NNFAK: I would man...

(22:59:49) PhoneMan: how do you let a forum die if users keep using it? kill the servers?

May those who love us, love us; and those who don't love us, may God turn their hearts; and if He doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles so we'll know them by their limping

If someone had prince albert in a can, does that mean they'd have a killer codpiece?

(00:52:02) WolfSpring: elbow could sell a sandbox to an egyptian
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MBI

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Post Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:33 am

Re: An email I received today: "Gun control push begins"

GringoLocksmith wrote:MBI,
...though now I'm even more curious about how you'd answer mine from earlier.
Gringo


I wrote out a comprehensive answer to your question, tried to address as many of your points as possible, but decided it was just WAY too long, so I pared it back to the very basics, which still ended up longer than I'd hoped. If I don't fully answer every part of what you discussed, it's not that I'm avoiding it, I'm just trying to keep this response readable by staying with the very heart and spirit of the matter.

To "bear arms" implies a person is able to carry or "bear" that firearm. For the purposes of the second amendment it's generally been accepted as the category of "small arms". As things stand today I'd generally agree with that. There are a few fine points I'd nitpick and argue as to where EXACTLY to draw the line, but overall I agree the Second Amendment essentially applies to small arms. Not nuclear missiles, which is the inflammatory argument so often thrown around in these discussions.

Federal gun control is based on, what was considered at the time to be a specious legal argument. I still consider it to be so. They screwed up in 1934. IF there is going to be any legislation regarding firearms, I think it falls under the jurisdiction of the individual states, as it is not a power that was explicity granted to the federal government under the Constitution. It's up to the citizens of each state to decide what constitutes "infringement" and vote for their leadership accordingly.

Whether we like it or not some states will pass laws that will infringe, perhaps heavily, on the Second Amendment. If you find yourself in such a state, it's your choice whether to try to help elect new leadership, or if all else fails, move to a different state. I believe the federal government should keep it's nose out of it entirely.

I'll give one practical example as to why the feds should stay out of it, and it's an example that goes to the heart of the matter of why federal gun laws are ridiculous.

Most laws regulating specific firearms or their features focus on whether that weapon or feature has a "sporting use". Currently, all it takes to add or remove something from that "sporting" category is an order from the head of the ATF. One single person. A person who is appointed by and generally does whatever the president tells him to do. It's very arbitrary and prone to abuses of power.

This made-up category often seems to boil down to just how "mean" a weapon looks. Plenty of formerly-legal weapons have been reclassified and the owners of those weapons have very little recourse. Basically all they can do is register it as an NFA weapon (if they're allowed to, they're not permitted in some arbitrary cases) or turn it in to be destroyed. Some of these weapons are worth quite a lot of money, and for the government to seize it (or ORDER you to hand it over, which equates to the same thing) without fair compensation, is unconstitutional. To top it all off, I don't recall seeing anything about "sports" mentioned in the second amendment.
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elbowmacaroni

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Post Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:33 am

Re: An email I received today: "Gun control push begins"

GringoLocksmith, I can sum my thoughts on your point up here very succinctly. That is EXACTLY how they want you to feel about it. If you have that mindset, then you will be open to the creeping incrementalism at each baby step along the way. Until one day, like the proverbial frog in the pot, your goose is cooked!

-Elbow :akimbo:

GringoLocksmith wrote:MBI,

That's just the kind of well-considered and informative post I've come to expect from you. Thanks for that.

I'll gladly answer your question, though now I'm even more curious about how you'd answer mine from earlier.

With the way that amendment is structured, I think it's reasonable to interpret that the people are allowed to keep and bear arms for the purpose of maintaining militias. Since I'm no historian, I don't want to pretend I know what they meant, though I admit that interpretation never even occurred to me until I heard it expressed within the last couple of years. This also raises the question of what matters more: what they meant or what they wrote, and also the meaning of what they wrote then vs its meaning now. Based on the wording of the other amendments, I would have much less reason to interpret them as assuring rights in a collective way.

But I think a more important question is whether it makes sense to maintain an absolutist interpretation of the 2nd amendment in 2013. I'm sure you've heard this line of thinking before, but the extremely literal interpretation of a completely uninfringed right to bear arms would allow our neighbors down the street to keep nuclear warheads in their barn. And I think that for most or all of us, we think of that prospect and say, "Okay, maybe there should be a touch of infringement." A slightly smaller but still-large percentage of us don't want our neighbors to have non-nuclear missiles either. But what about a bazooka? A couple of grenades? A Kalashnikov? A Glock? As soon as we all admit that we don't want our neighbors to have those warheads, we must recognize that none of us are purists. We're all staking out our ground at some point on this sliding scale of gun rights permissiveness. And the closer we get to living right on top of each other, the less comfortable we are with our neighbors being armed at all. So city dwellers draw the line nearer to the prohibition end of the spectrum. When I lived in the country, I wouldn't have minded if the dairy farmer up the road had a machine gun. Now that I'm in a condo, I'm not sure I want the drunk that lives on the other side of the wall to have one. But I think, since there's this general consensus about the largest weapons of war, that we're all kind of doing a similar and self-interested calculation. Ultimately, most of us are okay with a level of infringement that protects us and our families without changing our way of life.

What I question is the thinking that the place where the line is currently drawn is somehow sacrosanct. Even with all the restrictions that are currently in place, one baby step toward the more prohibitive end of the spectrume is never viewed as a slight shift in our collective comfort level with guns. Rather, it always has to be that the levy is breaking and we're going to lose everything. I just don't see it that way. I see gun rights as being like permissible BAC levels while driving. Over the past X number of decades, as we've moved closer together and become more concerned with safety, there's been this steady march away from permissiveness. The prohibitionists are always going to hit a wall, though, because these things -- guns, alcohol, liberty -- are so deeply ingrained in our culture. There will always be pushback. It doesn't need to be alarmist in nature, this pushback. This isn't the beginning of the end. It's the continuation of a tectonic shift that no one can stop. It's moving too slowly to seriously effect any of us, aside from the occasional tremor that spooks us a bit (and maybe requires a call to a locksmith).

Gringo
"Cave ab homine unius libri" - Beware of anyone who has just one book

(2014.02.09 - 23:26:03) huxleypig: i freaking love cream
(2014.02.09 - 23:27:11) huxleypig: hey, come on, cream is nice
(2014.02.09 - 23:27:37) huxleypig: aww, i suddenly feel very sick

(23:37:46) LocksmithArmy: you should see my school girl outfit
(23:37:50) LocksmithArmy: wait... what

(13:19:50) xeo: that chick will never be satisfied by a real dick
(13:19:54) NNFAK: I would man...

(22:59:49) PhoneMan: how do you let a forum die if users keep using it? kill the servers?

May those who love us, love us; and those who don't love us, may God turn their hearts; and if He doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles so we'll know them by their limping

If someone had prince albert in a can, does that mean they'd have a killer codpiece?

(00:52:02) WolfSpring: elbow could sell a sandbox to an egyptian
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elbowmacaroni

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Post Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:58 am

Re: An email I received today: "Gun control push begins"

This pretty much sums it all up...
HallisChalmers wrote:Sonsofbitches. :armed:


I like this sitetoo BTW!
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/03/daniel-zimmerman/atf-to-focus-on-gun-trust-loophole/

-Elbow :akimbo:
"Cave ab homine unius libri" - Beware of anyone who has just one book

(2014.02.09 - 23:26:03) huxleypig: i freaking love cream
(2014.02.09 - 23:27:11) huxleypig: hey, come on, cream is nice
(2014.02.09 - 23:27:37) huxleypig: aww, i suddenly feel very sick

(23:37:46) LocksmithArmy: you should see my school girl outfit
(23:37:50) LocksmithArmy: wait... what

(13:19:50) xeo: that chick will never be satisfied by a real dick
(13:19:54) NNFAK: I would man...

(22:59:49) PhoneMan: how do you let a forum die if users keep using it? kill the servers?

May those who love us, love us; and those who don't love us, may God turn their hearts; and if He doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles so we'll know them by their limping

If someone had prince albert in a can, does that mean they'd have a killer codpiece?

(00:52:02) WolfSpring: elbow could sell a sandbox to an egyptian
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elbowmacaroni

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Post Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:12 am

Re: An email I received today: "Gun control push begins"

:agree: :agree: :agree: I couldn't have said it better myself! Spot on!

Also, for your entertainment, and as a supplement to your post, Ted Nugent OWNS Piers Morgan on the gun debate. He is so clear and to the point with the fact that a gun is merely a tool. Tools do nothing on their own. It takes a person using a tool for "work" to happen. Period. End of story. Yep, it really is that simple!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6ShWlA3KlE

-Elbow :akimbo:


echoplot wrote:The thing that tends to set off the more alarmist type push back is the fact that we do have politicians, currently in office, currently still pushing for restrictions, who have gone on television and said things like this... http://youtu.be/ffI-tWh37UY
A lot of folks will tend to take that quite seriously, as they probably well should.
Some of us might be more inclined to come to some sort of sane agreement if:
1. We didn't have politicians like that who never quit trying to work toward a total ban.
2. We didn't have politicians like the following, who are totally clueless about the very things they're attempting to legislate. They're dangerous because of their ignorance in a position of power. Not only are they the ones passing laws, they're also the ones going around on television and radio convincing their constituents of what to back and why. Those of us who know better can laugh at their fuck ups; however those who don't, end up being misinformed in a way that ought to be considered criminal. http://youtu.be/9rGpykAX1fo

I think those are largely the reasons for the alarmist reactions.

As for 2A interpretations....that's certainly widely contested.
While I certainly wouldn't back the right to own a nuclear warhead, I do back the right to own small arms on par with current military standards, and I do so for the following reason.
When the US Constitution was drafted, the muzzleloading flintlock rifle was the pinnicle of weapons technology, and everyone had access to it. It didn't matter if you were a farmer or one of the king's soldiers, that was the best anyone could get their hands on (manufacturing quality aside).
Many folks will argue that the founders never conceived of automatic weapons and so-called "assault rifles", and so they shouldn't be covered by the Constitution. I would argue that it doesn't really matter what advancements in weapons technology they could conceive of. At the time of the document's drafting, they supported the right for the average citizen to own weaponry on par with that of any foot soldier in the army of any nation on the face of the planet, including our own. Technology advances, but that doesn't render a provision in a legal document moot. I would argue that as firearms tech advances, so too should our right to have access to it. Unfortunately, we've been long since overshadowed, for decades, in our ability to remain on par with our own army and those of other nations.
"Cave ab homine unius libri" - Beware of anyone who has just one book

(2014.02.09 - 23:26:03) huxleypig: i freaking love cream
(2014.02.09 - 23:27:11) huxleypig: hey, come on, cream is nice
(2014.02.09 - 23:27:37) huxleypig: aww, i suddenly feel very sick

(23:37:46) LocksmithArmy: you should see my school girl outfit
(23:37:50) LocksmithArmy: wait... what

(13:19:50) xeo: that chick will never be satisfied by a real dick
(13:19:54) NNFAK: I would man...

(22:59:49) PhoneMan: how do you let a forum die if users keep using it? kill the servers?

May those who love us, love us; and those who don't love us, may God turn their hearts; and if He doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles so we'll know them by their limping

If someone had prince albert in a can, does that mean they'd have a killer codpiece?

(00:52:02) WolfSpring: elbow could sell a sandbox to an egyptian
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xeo

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Post Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:56 am

Re: An email I received today: "Gun control push begins"

It seems many of you are missing a key point as I tried to illustrate with my reply: Good luck trying to round up all the weapons people own. Going door to door are we? Right. Better make multiple passes due to people on vacation, dead, incorrect addresses, vacant houses, people not home, people at work, guns sold, guns missing, guns hidden in walls, guns in safes, guns inside of vaults, guns buried out in the woods, guns in high security warehouses, black market illegal guns, guns broken down into components that haven't been assembled, etc etc etc. It just isn't feasible.

Nobody is coming to take your guns. What they are coming for is your right to own and buy one. So, buy them now, hide them now. Have a cover story and hiding location pre-planned to explain the missing weapons IF ever confronted about it. That is my plan and hence why I don't care at all about any legislature some crooked politician concocts.

If any of this comes to actuality people will RAGE, hardcore. They know this. They're trying to slowly turn up the heat instead of going right to incinerate. The big scary Orwelian shit nobody here will see in their lifetime.

Nothing in the constitution or any other American document matters at all and it never has. Nobody has any rights in America. It is all a big game to these people.
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GringoLocksmith

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Post Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:52 pm

Re: An email I received today: "Gun control push begins"

You guys keep referring to this nebulous "they" that's coming for our guns and/or gun rights. Who's they? The government? That's an entity of self-interested actors, and in case you haven't noticed, it's so feeble lately that it can't even put on pants in the morning. Sure there's corruption in government, but the source of corruption is those who have lots of money and want more of it. As far as I can tell, the only money in this debate is on the arms industry side. Who's on the other side? Shady Hook mothers? Maybe they'd like to melt down every last gun in America, but there's no money to adequately fund that movement. All they have is popular sentiment, and in this democracy that's some weak tea.
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Post Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:17 pm

Re: An email I received today: "Gun control push begins"

GringoLocksmith wrote:You guys keep referring to this nebulous "they" that's coming for our guns and/or gun rights. Who's they? The government? That's an entity of self-interested actors, and in case you haven't noticed, it's so feeble lately that it can't even put on pants in the morning. Sure there's corruption in government, but the source of corruption is those who have lots of money and want more of it. As far as I can tell, the only money in this debate is on the arms industry side. Who's on the other side? Shady Hook mothers? Maybe they'd like to melt down every last gun in America, but there's no money to adequately fund that movement. All they have is popular sentiment, and in this democracy that's some weak tea.


The New World Order.
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The code is hidden in the tumblers. One position opens the lock, another position opens one of these doors...
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rai

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Post Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:25 pm

Re: An email I received today: "Gun control push begins"

I support the entire bill of rights and the fourteenth amendment.

they are all very clear english, and mean exactly what they say.

they are ratified by the people of all fifty states,

there are many laws and opinions of corrupt judges that have thin sliced every word to mean the exact opposite of what it says

these laws and opinions are the foundation of the police state.

they are not ratified by any but the corrupt who need them to make the bill of rights irrelevant and the fearful sheeple who want an omnipotent fuhrer to lead them

Its time to found the Constitutional Party, with the Bill of Rights as the party platform

the other parties are giving us police state by mithridatism
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xeo

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Post Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:30 pm

Re: An email I received today: "Gun control push begins"

You can't fight the system by using channels within the system's own infrastructure. You will be shot down every time.
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The code is hidden in the tumblers. One position opens the lock, another position opens one of these doors...
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rai

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Post Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:38 pm

Re: An email I received today: "Gun control push begins"

All laws must be constitutional, and the constitution does not specify that only the supreme corrupt can understand it.

The constitution is ours, its the basis of all govenment authority.

laws and corrupt opinions that step over the clear meaning of the constitution have no authority. they only have govenment gunmen and sadists
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Post Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:10 pm

Re: An email I received today: "Gun control push begins"

Ice cream is the best! My favorite at this time is strawberry, followed by chocolate mint. It makes people happier and brings us closer. Hard to make a wedge to divide people out of ice cream.

Gordon
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ARF-GEF

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Post Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:28 pm

Re: An email I received today: "Gun control push begins"

I like chocolate, vanilla and raspberry. :)
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