The future of Pin Tumblers...

[m0ose]

Now I've got no specific information to bring to the table here, but lets brainstorm a minute.

Where do you see the future of pin tumblers going? I mean, it's been the same design for many years, though the invention and use of security pins has been a highly notable change, it's still not enough.

I see the fancy new locks like Mul-T and so forth, but is that where it's really going?

Think of the design of the pin tumbler locks in general. Not many are very secure by design. Other than the pins acting as boss, the only other real thing is the type of key and how the keyway reacts to use of tension.

So mainly my question is to you. Where do you see the future of the long loved, and often picked, broke, bypassed, pin tumbler lock?

[locfoc]

I was thinking of an abloy style disc cylinder but without a round key, and I was thinking the discs in the lock would rotate as the key was being pushed in so what would happen is a side pin would slide into a groove in the side of the key and be pulled into the cylinder through the spaces in the discs as they rotate to the proper positions. Like a disc lock combined with a side pin laser key lock, and you would incorporate more then 1 side pin that gets pushed into the sides of the key as it is being pushed into the cylinder, so that means all of the mechanical parts inside the lock would be moving together in union. Also you can make a reverse magnetic back bar so when the key is pushed into the very back of the lock the magnets release the pins and it will allow the plug to spin. Go ahead and pick that.

I really think that brands of mechanical locks will be a thing of the past, I think there will be ONE standard lock company used for everything, something like what I mention above, just so incredibly difficult to pick or access it's beyond comprehension of almost anyone in society. And everything else will become electronic components attaching to the new standard of lock. And then everybody will be hacking the electronic components in stead of trying to pick this unpickable lock.

[locfoc]

Or another secure lock would be, a small part from the rear of the cylinder sits in the very front of the plug as you push your key in it pushes this part into the back of the lock. Once the key is fully inserted the discs wrap themselves around the key, maybe the discs are cut in half and come half from each side to wrap around the key. Try thinking of an S&G Type 1 Manipulation Proof safe lock. You have to dial the combo, dial to 0 then switch the thumbturn in the front of the dial to release the lever arm to see if the fence will drop into the gates. Well this incorporates an idea like this: if you don't insert the proper key it won't open.
And the parts inside the lock cannot be moved once the little piece is pushed into the very back of the lock, so you can't push it back then pick the lock. It merely allows the discs to wrap around the current cuts on the key to check if it's the right key or not.

[m0ose]

I was thinking of an abloy style disc cylinder but without a round key, and I was thinking the discs in the lock would rotate as the key was being pushed in so what would happen is a side pin would slide into a groove in the side of the key and be pulled into the cylinder through the spaces in the discs as they rotate to the proper positions. Like a disc lock combined with a side pin laser key lock, and you would incorporate more then 1 side pin that gets pushed into the sides of the key as it is being pushed into the cylinder, so that means all of the mechanical parts inside the lock would be moving together in union. Also you can make a reverse magnetic back bar so when the key is pushed into the very back of the lock the magnets release the pins and it will allow the plug to spin. Go ahead and pick that.

I really think that brands of mechanical locks will be a thing of the past, I think there will be ONE standard lock company used for everything, something like what I mention above, just so incredibly difficult to pick or access it's beyond comprehension of almost anyone in society. And everything else will become electronic components attaching to the new standard of lock. And then everybody will be hacking the electronic components in stead of trying to pick this unpickable lock.

I agree with the idea of the electronic mechanisms and so forth, but I highly doubt the one company to rule them all theory. There's just too much business possibilities for one company to take hold of everything.

[locfoc]

you're right it will be divided between the proprietary systems of apple and microsoft

[barbarian]

I think everyone pretty much agrees that burglars don't often pick locks. It is easy to get a simple pin tumbler lock open, but thieves don't often pick locks. So in that respect locks are working well now, why should we think that making them harder to pick would be better ??

The crooks kick in the door, or break a window.

Now there are a few applications where better locks are used, but many of those places also use other security measures too, like video cameras or swipe cards, or complex alarm systems. If a team of bad guys decides to rob one of these places, they would bring an electric pick or maybe a big drill. They would bring something that ensured they could get past the lock and all the other security there too.

When bump keys were made popular in the media a few years ago, some people said that now the thieves would all have a bump key, everyone needed bump proof locks. I haven't seen the police departments making public statements about all the bump keys they are finding.

Most of the higher security locks around today feature key control as one of their big selling points. You can't borrow a key for 20 minutes and go to the local hardware store to get it copied. They do also have increased resistance to picking and drilling etc. I just don't think that resistance to picking adds that much extra security to a lock in the real world.

[locfoc]

On the contrary, they do pick and bump locks. You have your head wrapped around residential security only for some reason. Lets bring in commerial and industrial with steel doors and steel frames filled with concrete. Kind of hard to break a window in a concrete wall when it doesn't have one.

The thing is it's not commonly known they do it because most people just assume the person that broke in had a key, at least that is almost everyones first assumption. "Damn who robbed me... maybe it was Jeff he had my key, that bastard! I'm calling the cops"

[locfoc]

I've had to deal with tons of jobs that couldn't be explained by my customer, and in all honesty it shouldn't be. if the customer knew what happened it means they where in on it.

[barbarian]

........You have your head wrapped around residential security only for some reason. Lets bring in commerial and industrial with steel doors and steel frames filled with concrete. Kind of hard to break a window in a concrete wall when it doesn't have one.

I had just finished reading this. http://www.wired.com/politics/law/magaz ... ntPage=all

So no I wasn't thinking about residential. Hence this bit of my post..

.......Now there are a few applications where better locks are used, but many of those places also use other security measures too, like video cameras or swipe cards, or complex alarm systems. If a team of bad guys decides to rob one of these places, they would bring an electric pick or maybe a big drill. They would bring something that ensured they could get past the lock and all the other security there too....

[locfoc]

Yes I've read in great detail every aspect of that robbery also, but that wasn't what I was talking about. I am a locksmith and I do deal with tons of buildings that are concrete and steel, what I stated was from personal experience.

I have fixed tons of buildings with concrete and steel, no fob's, no proximity, no guards. The way I could describe it is, think of a combination of building construction and security products and I've worked on it all.

[m0ose]

This brings up a fine point though. The general concept of a lock has never really worked perfectly on it's own. With so many variables it can't really be left to the lock to decide, so where is the line drawn?

Locks in the current state are blatantly pickable, bypassable, or bruteforceable. Where will the future really find that happy median, and when it does, will that continue to be exploited?

It's just a couple of questions I've been pondering.

[barbarian]

The line often gets drawn at cost. A modern pin tumbler lock is a pretty good compromise. Keeps a lot of people out, and it's cheap.

We all like locks and think they are neat. The "unpickable" lock is like the ultimate thing for us. Exploiters look at the entire package of security. If the lock is too hard, they just look at other ways.

Security will always be tested / exploited.

Commercial, government, financial, millitary, they all use layers, or they should be. They don't rely on one level of security. Cameras, electronics, armed guards and more. All in proportion to the value being protected.

If you want a very hard lock, look at the Abloy cliq, or the Fichet 3D. Expensive little beasties aren't they ?

[nozza36]

Nothing to add gentlemen , i just wanted to say thanks for the most
interesting thread in a long time !