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Hey Guys,

Check out this sweet new pin tumbler lock design from Canada!

I was lent a prototype model to play around with and analyze and I really like this thing! It's really clever and has great build quality (especially the awesome keys).

Its a Hybrid of a Pin tumbler lock and a "hidden keyway" lock (kind of a similar idea to the "Forever Lock" in that there is no direct access to the pins).

It's got a bunch of interesting features so I will just post my video here so you guys can check it out:

(You can use the time stamps on the YouTube watch page to jump to any section of the video).






What do you guys think about the idea/design?

Interesting design for sure but those keys are way too fragile.

If you have a tight fit and need to use force to lock/unlock your deadbolt that piece is going to eventually snap off right in the lock since only the very tip is what actuates the bolt.

The inventor told me he considered this possibility and stands behind the key not breaking. I guess only time will tell~

Did you get a chance to watch the video section on key strength?

I thought the same thing as you, but damn those keys are actually really strong!

Internal tension,
External bumping.

I think might work.
Is the face of the lock made out of some "special hardened material"?
Is the back of the key-way open?
Right out of the gate "I like it",
but in this cat and mouse game of security, I feel it's only a matter of time until the newness and surprise wears off.
Or maybe this will turn out to be....."The Pick Proof Lock"

Nice lock. It reminds me a safe lever lock, that has the flag cut like this key and a tube that prevents direct access to the levers like this new lock does with the pins. Don't remember the lock brand but I hope that someone will chime in with the brand name.

To pick it you just need a "spiral" pick that needs to be rotated instead of pushed in and out. Tensioning is a problem but I'm sure someone will find a way sooner or later.

To bump it, you need to offset the cuts to make a working bump key.

I'm happy to see something new. Just don't assume it's much more secure than other locks. It hasn't been picked jet because it still a prototype. Time will tell.

About keys strength. The weak point is close to the tip, where the part with the bittings is connected to the tip. you tested the shaft and that part looks strong. Grab the part with the bittings between your index and thumb and the bow with the other hand, you may be able to bend it.

Cheers

Thanks for your ideas guys! I have been getting all sorts of ideas sent to me, they are all very interesting to read.

Just some extra details to add:

- The lock face and shield is made out of 17-4 staniless steel.

- I tested only the Biting section of the key by pressing down on it with my fingers as hard as I could and it would not bend. I then took the key and pressed the biting section against the corner of my wall as hard as I could and it did not deform or break. Only extended use tests will see the real life of the key, but I think you guys will really be surprised at how strong this key is.

It looks like the lock costs $105 USD per deadbolt ( + 4 keys) on the Kickstarter page.

Interestingly enough - they offer a "Lock pickers challenge kit" that includes 1 cylinder and 1 key with no deadbolt hardware for only $90 USD.


What do you guys think about a contest if this lock is funded and released. I am thinking something like a picking or bumping done over a Skype call on a brand new lock out of the box gets a gift card or cash prize. (No key impressioning or make up keys because that is just "making a key").

i think i see an easy way to open this, how thick is the steel of the key bitting?

Interesting design.

As mentioned, time will tell just how strong the key is but I can see a problem already with the key.

It will be getting caught up on things in the pocket, either the cloth itself or other things in the pocket.

A lot of well designed locks failed to sell well because the key was too big or bulky or just a pain to carry.

I suppose that this could be overcome by using a key wallet or something but.......

Just my two cents.

PS " they offer a "Lock pickers challenge kit" that includes 1 cylinder and 1 key with no deadbolt hardware for only $90 USD."

Do you get the $90 back if you pick it??

That's why I think a contest would be cool. If someone can fairly pick it with a tool they made I could give the cash back as a prize or something.




The Biting section of the key is just about 1.5mm wide.

Marduk28; i think i could make a tool to open this for a couple of dollars just using a dremel and some hand files. rather than discuss this here can you give me a contact for the inventor and i can speak to them about it rather than discuss it in public.

So are you affiliated with the inventor or manufacturer?

Same comments I made on another forum for this lock..

their statement about the oversetting of the pins and "falling" is not correct.

if you look at the design of the inner cylinder, when the key is not in the vertical position, yes they are over set.. but that's irrelevant since the key won't line up with the slot to put tension on the core..

NOW.. once you put the key vertically, yes they do fall.. BUT.. you still can't open the lock (even normally) when you first get to the vertical position. you have to push it in. when you push it in, the pins are in the same position as a regular pin lock.. they are DOWN.. (not up. ans they have already fallen).

if you create a bump key with the deepest cuts, and rotate the key vertically, (but not pushed in), then all the pins are DOWN and can be bumped like a regular lock (but you can't tension it.. since the back of the key is not in the slot..) the "anti-bumping" is not the pins.. it's the way the key has to fit into the back slot to put tension on the core..

and in fact.. I think this is a bad design, and here is why.. in regular bumping, there is no direct link between the tension on the core (rotation by hand) and the force of the hammer hitting the key..

but with this lock, if you think about it.. there is a direct link.. as the key is forced backwards by the "bump" it gets forced into the back slot, and it's 100% consistent. The distance is always the same and it always slides in the slot the EXACT SAME TIME as the timing of the cuts on the KEY force the pins UP. you just need to find the angle to grind the back "flag??". to get the timing of the force on the back face to when the pins are above the shear line.

how you would exploit this is as follows.. if you file the back of the key (flag part the slots into the back face) at a 45-degree angle.. you now rotate the key a 1/2 to 2/3 of a key width to the same direction of the angle. when you push the key forward, (but not any rotation) .. that angle on the back of the key will automatically rotate the key for you the last few degrees.. (with the same timing every time). the challenge is now the bitting and the pins which are blocked ever so slightly by the "c" cut in the inner tube.. the distance here I'm talking about is 1/2 width of the key.. so it's simple.. reduce your key (where the bitting is) to half it's width.. so the core is in the fully rotated angle. (pins are now down) but the key is off by 1/2 a width, and the angle of the back grind if lined up exactly where you want it (1/2 way on the back 45 degree angle)

in their video they mention about the distance you need to push the key in that last step to get the "flag" in the slot, and it's not a full pin distance.. easy solution.. just offset the cuts in the key and bring them back the same distance of the flag to they are lined up with the fallen pins when the key is not pushed forward

now bump away..

ALSO I suspect the is a "denial of use" attack that can be done on this lock.. find a way to rotate the inner core ( with a paperclip/pick) with no key in it) to the vertical position.. the pins fall into the empty cut in the cylinder and prevent the inner core from being rotated any more.. you now can't get the key in the lock. just like when you rotate a picked core to 180 degrees and the pins fall into the bottom of the keyway.

the only way to prevent this is to have "angle" cuts on the inner core that would lift any dropped pins so it can rotate.. BUT.. that angled cut would make it even easier to bump as there is now extra space on either side of the keyway for the pins to drop for bumping.. if there is an angle cut, then there is no need to file the bitting to 1/2 the width, as the angle cut on the core wyou give you that extra space for the pins to drop.

You can contact the inventor directly through his website or through his kick-starter page.



He contacted me and asked me if I could review his lock. He also asked if I could find any weaknesses or ways to improve the lock. Since I am not the most " technical" guy I just said what I thought, but I knew that there would be a bunch more interesting ideas that would come in. I am actually genuinely curious if someone can manufacture a method/tool to crack this thing.

I asked him what he would do if someone picked it/bumped it and he said he would redesign it to fix any major weaknesses. He's a cool guy~ very friendly and seems passionate about making a good lock.

Thanks for the additional info Marduk28.

It's an interesting idea.
Hopefully some time and testing will reveal if there are flaws that need to be corrected.

A representative of the manufacturer just registered here so it'll be nice for members here to have some open discourse with him.

I'd take a key and chop the bitting off, just leaving the end and use it as a tensioner. Then when the pins fall down you could use a rotary-type arrangement to pick the pins. That'd work, right? Where the key enters the lock, there has to be a space to let the key spin round at all, right? So the length of the bitting can't pass through metal, there has to be a path to the pins from the base of the keyway (the same path the bitting follows).

Or a pin and cam would work.

One thing I love about lockpicks is that they don't have to behave like keys. So they can break some of the rules. This lock has the tiny bit of metal to support the bitting but a pick could exist in half the space and still function. They can be smaller than the key, only work on 1 element at once...hell, they don't even always have to open the lock, just decode it.

Cool lock still though.