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Re: tumbl3r's videos

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:49 pm
by Patrick Star
Really nice to see someone pwning these "unpickable" locks! :-)
I have one, but haven't started on it yet (well, just felt it up a bit but no actual attempt at picking it). No key and not the kind with easily removable top pins, so I need to shim it or something to practice the sidebar alone... Plus I need to drill out one of the screws to even get that far as some genius had LocTite'd them (wtf?).
Was planning it as my next project after Twin 6000.
They seem to be kinda hard to get as they are mostly part of big systems and returned to the locksmith when taken out of service :(. You can buy some cylinder called "Assa Max" in various lock shops here but I think that's just a recent Twin, not the Combi.

Maybe it's better to start with the Primus..? Easier to get multiple cylinders to experiment with if nothing else. Suggestions?

Re: tumbl3r's videos

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:44 am
by tumbl3r
Thanks man! I saw you live in Sweden and had to chuckle. I have this romanticized notion that ASSA Twins, Combis, Pros, and all the other best locks in the world are just falling from the sky in that area. It's a little sad that they can be as hard to come by there as they are here. I really love ASSA locks, and am always keeping an eye out for them, but they are very uncommon and tend to go for a lot of money when they do show up for sale.

It's cool that you have a Combi, but a bummer there is no key for it. I guess shimming the drivers is probably a good idea, and you can isolate the sidebar that way. I found with picking the sidebar that the best method is to lift the pin a little. Sometimes you'll feel a little set, but often you wont. Once you've lifted it a bit, release much of your tension and try pushing or pulling on it. When it finds its true gate, you'll get a distinctive click and a bit of core movement. You'll have to push or pull pretty hard on them along with pretty light tension to get them to move. They really like to settle into those teeth on the sidebar.

Primus is a really fun lock to pick and I found that it was a great way to get prepared for the Combi. The pins rotate much easier, but the distinctive feel of them setting is very much the same. I share the same concerns as you. I only have a handful of ASSA locks. I can pick the ones that I have, but don't really have much confidence in my ability to generalize the skill. If Primus cores are easier for you to get, it does seem like a good idea to work on those. Please do let me know how it's going with the picking. I'm happy to try to help in anyway I can with the little bit of experience that I have.

Re: tumbl3r's videos

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:17 am
by Patrick Star
They are quite common, but still hard to get just a single lock... and even when decommissioned they seem to keep disappearing before I can get my hands on them :(. I actually ended up ordering a Twin 6000 from securitysnobs, but maybe that's just me being impatient.
Most apartments and such are ASSA 700 or d12. DORMA DC500 and Alfa/GeGe are quite common as well.

But atleast I had a second look at these, which you can buy online, and the key clearly says "Twin Combi": http://www.laskompaniet.se/product/cyli ... 01-inkl-ny Expensive, but I guess I'll add it to my christmas wish list :)

I have a Twin Combi 1800 as well but that's the budget version without the full sidebar mechanism.

Re: tumbl3r's videos

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:18 pm
by tumbl3r
WOW! That is astronomically priced! At that price, it has to be a legitimate Combi mechanical elements. Probably just a less restricted keyway so that they can sell it to the public. What you say about decommissioned locks makes me wonder if ASSA has a deal with locksmiths whereby they get some money for the locks that are returned. Sort of like a plan to keep them from making their way around and getting into the hands of people like us, LOL. Or maybe they are just so valuable that the locksmiths re-sell them to other customers. Interesting anyhow... Thanks for the info :)

Re: tumbl3r's videos

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:18 pm
by Patrick Star
I think it's just ASSA being ASSA... the idea being that if you want something fancier/harder to copy than a d12 you are willing to pay for it.
Even though there are (arguably superior) options at that price level - even from other companies in the ASSA Group (*cough* Abloy *cough*) - chances are that if you're an individual/small business here and feel like you want to care about these things, you are gonna buy whatever ASSA wants to sell you.
Or maybe it's just meant to squeeze some money out of over-eager lock pickers/collectors... :)

To be honest, I personally don't really understand what market segment Twin is supposed to occupy. Not saying that they are easy to pick or anything (haha!) - it's just that with the low sidebar entropy (one per region, locksmith or at most system), I fail to see how they can offer really high security. As in offer a proper level of protection when your threat model is advanced enough that a good pin tumbler in itself isn't enough.
There are several large Twin/Twin Combi systems here keeping Really Important Stuff behing locked doors (not mentioning any names) where they definitely haven't considered that anyone with a key (or a photo and a 3d printer, or a stolen cylinder) can reduce the security level anywhere in the system to that of a pin tumbler.

Re: tumbl3r's videos

PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:32 pm
by Patrick Star
http://www.hsl-online.com/assa-twin-com ... 0-63-c.asp

No idea if they ship internationally though.

Re: tumbl3r's videos

PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:55 am
by tumbl3r
S&G 826C With Medeco Classic Core. Picked to control and gutted.



No Flash Link: https://youtu.be/dlKkhjwuWUk

Re: tumbl3r's videos

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:18 am
by tumbl3r

Re: tumbl3r's videos

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:21 pm
by Patrick Star
What do you mean by "graduated spools" in that video?
I have only seen Twin's with one of three kinds of security pins:
- gin bottle only
- pinning like ASSA 700
and
- the newer barrel thingies
What kind am I missing?


PS. There's atleast one more Twin sidebar mechanism, so you aren't done yet :-)

Re: tumbl3r's videos

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:09 am
by tumbl3r
These are the pins I was referring too as graduated spools. I believe they are the ones you were discussing in your ASSA 700 guide.

ScreenXShotX2017-01-16XatX9.07.48XPM.png


One more sidebar mechanism you say??? Go on....

Re: tumbl3r's videos

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:46 am
by Patrick Star
tumbl3r wrote:One more sidebar mechanism you say??? Go on....

The ASSA DP. It's pretty new and I haven't found much more than marketing material. As I've understood it, it has a springless side mechanism (like the Desmo), but I might be wrong here. I need to pester my local locksmith I think :-) There have been lots of complaints about reliability issues with the Twin Combi, so it'd make perfect sense if they went down that route.
See http://www.assa.se/Other/ASSA/Products/ ... nglish.pdf
I suppose technically it's not sold as ASSA Twin, but the key, keyway and even model number is so close it should still qualify.

Re: tumbl3r's videos

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:11 pm
by tumbl3r
Ahhh yes... I had learned of the DP a few weeks ago, but didn't realize it was related to the Twin series. Makes total sense that it is. I believe I should be getting one of those in a trade someime in February. Seems like a really fun lock to pick! I love the split pin design! Thanks for all your info on these locks Patrick! I really appreciate it.

Re: tumbl3r's videos

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:36 pm
by Patrick Star
Is it this patent? http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7621163.html
I don't know much more about the DP than a cursory mention by a drunk locksmith and the marketing PDFs :) Have to try to score one...
Edit: An earlier similar patent as well: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7370502.html Which matches the stated patent expiration date (2023)

Re: tumbl3r's videos

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:22 pm
by tumbl3r
IKON VERSO. Very tricky pick. Took lots and lots of tension. I'm not aware of anyone else having picked this particular lock.



No Flash Link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOKZLjViEZA

Re: tumbl3r's videos

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:24 pm
by madsamurai
That's a cool lock! ...and an impressive pick. Nice work!