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Membership card or lapel pin?

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escher7

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Post Fri May 17, 2013 3:33 pm

Membership card or lapel pin?

Just a thought but it would be useful to the non-locksmiths among us to have some way to identify ourselves as members of the locksport community. For instance, when I hit up a locksmith for old locks it might help to show that I at least participate in these forums and that such a thing as locksport exists. It certainly would not certify a person in any way or even prove that they are honest hobbiests but it could be useful.
Imagine the police stop you for some minor reason and discover your picks. Legally there is a heavy onus on you to show you are not carrying them for some illegal purpose. A card would be helpful in showing that you have a legitimate reason to have the picks. Of course if you are inside someone's house or business, forget it.
There would have to be some minimum level of participation to obtain such a card - perhaps a minimum of 50 posts that display in the opinion of admin, a knowledge of the field etc. And the card would have to be phrased in such a way that Keypicking was not vouching for the members' bone fides.
Finally, the card could be a source of income or at least cover its own cost for the site.

???????

(Here is Lock Picking 101's lapel pin, which I am sure you have seen.)
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ARF-GEF

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Post Fri May 17, 2013 4:23 pm

Re: Membership card or lapel pin?

I actually think this a really good idea!

1. It's cool. 2. We could support the site while we get sth in return. 3. I think it would strengthen the community.
I don't thin kit would have any legal effect. (At lest here it would have 0. The most policemen don't even speak English.) But it would be good to have a way to show other lock enthusiast or even possible lockeis that you mean business and you are not just any shady guy.
I could even imagine that people can't automatically get the membership right away. After some time, a number of posts, and if the MODS think you belong here. Or some other way to filer out some of the "rubbish".
Naturally the site would never be responsible for the acts of any of the members. It would only mean that someone is a serious member here and that the people here generally believe that he is a honest decent guy.
We could make a subpage where it describes what exactly this membership means so if any person has doubts about it you could just whip out you mobile and show them that webpage. On the site there would be an example to show how a card look and as brief list that the owner of such card met the following conditions....
That would give it an air of seriousness. I believe it is not too big trouble to do and hereby I offer my help to do it.

With lapel pins the paranoid people wouldn't have to provide their name. With a membership card you would have to give them tha name. Photo would probably be a bit too much. But I think ther would be no problem in giving them you name.
I doubt the cots would be too high. All you need is a good design for the card and a laminating machine. Postage cots would be covered by the applicant.
To infinity... and beyond!
=== WARNING DANGER OF TYPOS!===
Arfspeak: calnin cladycomes: you allow her key in themodning
Equals in plain English: cleaning lady comes: you allow her key in the morning
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xeo

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Post Fri May 17, 2013 4:28 pm

Re: Membership card or lapel pin?

Cool idea however I would not personally want to wave around a big flag that says I pick locks.
Image
The code is hidden in the tumblers. One position opens the lock, another position opens one of these doors...
http://www.youtube.com/xeotech1

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ARF-GEF

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Post Fri May 17, 2013 5:01 pm

Re: Membership card or lapel pin?

Obviously it wouldn't be tattooed on your forehead :D I too do not want to wave around a big flag that says I pick lock.
What I though is just a laminated credit card sized thingy. You either keep it with you or don't. And it's up to you whom you show it to.
It is just a small advantage that you have some sort of physical evidence (even if it's weak) that you are doing it as a hobby not as a crime.
As I see another big advantage is to support the site while getting something in return.
If the texts are written sensibly we can have a good membership card without the site taking any risk whatsoever.
To infinity... and beyond!
=== WARNING DANGER OF TYPOS!===
Arfspeak: calnin cladycomes: you allow her key in themodning
Equals in plain English: cleaning lady comes: you allow her key in the morning
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MBI

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Post Fri May 17, 2013 5:25 pm

Re: Membership card or lapel pin?

Doug Farre tried to get something like this going on lp101 but it died out after a few months. He called it Locksport Certification or something like that. Basically, be on the forum for a little while, take a certification test, get a laminated card with your picture on it. There may have been a small fee to cover the cost of making the card, I don't remember.

In my opinion the biggest problem with it is, if you presented that to most locksmiths or cops it would raise more questions than it would answer and possibly have them regard you with more suspicion. Probably not all of them, but more than not. That's just my opinion though and I have no experience in law enforcement or as a locksmith for me to give any firsthand experience in those arenas. ;)
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escher7

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Post Fri May 17, 2013 7:14 pm

Re: Membership card or lapel pin?

No one is suggesting that it be waived around. And I don't see a test as being practical. Regular participation on the site and Mods' judgement that you are not just a troll would be sufficient since no one is really being certified. The only point would be to show that you have an active interest in locksport. The card need only have some type of logo, the site name and a place for the name and signature of the member. Perhaps also some motto as well.
I practiced law for 35 years in Canada and I can assure you that this would not incur any liability.

I suspect the previous attempt failed because it was too complicated. A test, for instance is silly and would imply certification and hence liability. As for its effect on locksmiths, police etc. it would not be any more confusing than trying to tell them you pick locks for fun. If Lockpicking 101 can do it so can Keypicking.

Perhaps some of the Mods and other long-term members could suggest a way to bring it together. Maybe a poll to see how many are interested. And some of you design guys could come up with a few draft designs.
Vista print does 250 cards for $10 plus postage:
http://www.vistaprint.ca/splash/busines ...

Follow-up??
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MrAnybody

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The Muffin Man
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Post Fri May 17, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: Membership card or lapel pin?

escher7 wrote:I suspect the previous attempt failed because it was too complicated. A test, for instance is silly and would imply certification and hence liability. As for its effect on locksmiths, police etc. it would not be any more confusing than trying to tell them you pick locks for fun. If Lockpicking 101 can do it so can Keypicking.


I'm active on lp101 (more than here), and I'm unaware of anything like this that's worked. I find that a majority of people outside locksport are more suspicious of pickers than anything else.

Personally, I don't see the practical use of your suggestion, but I'm not known for my intelligence.
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GWiens2001

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Post Fri May 17, 2013 10:14 pm

Re: Membership card or lapel pin?

While I agree that a pin or other such item would be interesting, it would likely not help to establish you in most people's minds.

A lockie will not believe a card as showing that you have some minimum knowledge or reliability. Stopping by there a few times to get a few keys cut (when they are not busy!!!) and buying a lock or two lets them become familiar with your face. Then asking some questions about lock types in general, not about picking or bypassing them, but rather about pin types and differences between locking mechanisms from different manafacturers will do more to establish you in their eyes.

And by all means, listen when they talk and show respect for their knowledge!. They have spent years learning this stuff, and will have reason for believing what they think. Their thinking may be in error, but pointing that out will not earn you any points. If you want respect, show respect.

If you keep your picks in your car, and you are concerned that you may need to convince law enforcement that this is a hobby for you, why not keep three or four locks in the car with your picks? Have keys to the locks, too. It will be easier to convince the police that you are a hobby picker if you have your own locks to pick. Having the keys for at least most of those locks may prevent, or at least reduce, the suspicion that the locks themselves have been stolen by picking.

Just my two cents.

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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ARF-GEF

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Post Fri May 17, 2013 11:27 pm

Re: Membership card or lapel pin?

A lockie will not believe a card as showing that you have some minimum knowledge or reliability. Stopping by there a few times to get a few keys cut (when they are not busy!!!) and buying a lock or two lets them become familiar with your face. Then asking some questions about lock types in general, not about picking or bypassing them, but rather about pin types and differences between locking mechanisms from different manufacturers will do more to establish you in their eyes.


I usually ask already at the first time :) those who help are the "winners" :)
And by all means, listen when they talk and show respect for their knowledge!. They have spent years learning this stuff, and will have reason for believing what they think. Their thinking may be in error, but pointing that out will not earn you any points. If you want respect, show respect.

Very true. I would never dare to lecture a seasoned lockie. All I do if I am really sure I am right is to politely ans shyly allude at the evidences and let them see it for themselves. It would be disrespectful to do otherwise.
Actually the only lockie I dare to say it stright when I think he is wrong, is my boss. I am really luck to have an excellent relationship with him. He knows so very much more about the common lock here and teh actual locksmithing, but I probably know more about very rare and exotic locks. His knwoledge is multiple times bigger than mine, but naturally it is more practically oriented as well.
One of the things we regularly quarrel about is that he things 3ks is an unreliable shit (Although he admits to having no personal experience with it :D) while I think it's a really cool lock.
When he sees a cheap chinese crappy lock he always tells me "here is the brother of that 3ks of yours LOL" :D :D

And I too think they would have no legal effect. Or that they would not convince a lockie if you start from scratch. In fact now taht I think about it I agree with MBI more and more.
But I still think it would be a cool addition. At lest the lockies I know would probably find it interesting :)
At lest if they will be here I'll get one to suppot the site with it too.
To infinity... and beyond!
=== WARNING DANGER OF TYPOS!===
Arfspeak: calnin cladycomes: you allow her key in themodning
Equals in plain English: cleaning lady comes: you allow her key in the morning
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escher7

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Post Fri May 17, 2013 11:32 pm

Re: Membership card or lapel pin?

MrAnybody wrote:
escher7 wrote:I suspect the previous attempt failed because it was too complicated. A test, for instance is silly and would imply certification and hence liability. As for its effect on locksmiths, police etc. it would not be any more confusing than trying to tell them you pick locks for fun. If Lockpicking 101 can do it so can Keypicking.


I'm active on lp101 (more than here), and I'm unaware of anything like this that's worked. I find that a majority of people outside locksport are more suspicious of pickers than anything else.

Personally, I don't see the practical use of your suggestion, but I'm not known for my intelligence.



I was just referring to lp 101 having an anniversary lapel pin, which in this case would be more related to membership. Your indifference may be the opinion of the majority - that's why I put it out there, to find out.

Here is a crude idea of the kind of simple thing I mean:


One other advantage would be spreading the word about this site and it may bring others in to the fold.
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MBI

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Post Sat May 18, 2013 12:17 am

Re: Membership card or lapel pin?

I will be having stickers made soon with the keypicking URL and logo on them. Probably also pens with just the URL on them. I don't know if that will satisfy the itch for anyone on this issue.
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GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
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Post Sat May 18, 2013 12:22 am

Re: Membership card or lapel pin?

A few months ago, somebody posted the possibility of a T-shirt with a line drawing of a turned plug and the words "Ethics>Security". If that shirt came out, I'd buy it. Most people would have no idea what the line drawing was, let alone the words. The posts at the time seemed positive. Our ethics are greater than your security. Very important to live by that motto. Keep your ethics high, because security can be compromised. We could open that lock, but we won't, because it would be wrong to do so.

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
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Post Sat May 18, 2013 12:23 am

Re: Membership card or lapel pin?

MBI wrote:I will be having stickers made soon with the keypicking URL and logo on them. Probably also pens with just the URL on them. I don't know if that will satisfy the itch for anyone on this issue.


I'll buy those, too. :mrgreen:

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Sat May 18, 2013 3:42 am

Re: Membership card or lapel pin?

GWiens2001 wrote:If you keep your picks in your car, and you are concerned that you may need to convince law enforcement that this is a hobby for you, why not keep three or four locks in the car with your picks? Have keys to the locks, too. It will be easier to convince the police that you are a hobby picker if you have your own locks to pick. Having the keys for at least most of those locks may prevent, or at least reduce, the suspicion that the locks themselves have been stolen by picking.


LoL....think this'd help Gordon? If they pulled up my record.... nah, prolly wouldn't help. lol

My back window....

Image

.... and the dash of my car

Image

And a thread on random acts of obsessiveness :shock:


escher7 & ARF... I don't necessarily have an opinion on the idea... but I can most certainly appreciate your enthusiasm!
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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MrAnybody

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The Muffin Man
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Post Sat May 18, 2013 5:47 am

Re: Membership card or lapel pin?

GWiens2001 wrote:A few months ago, somebody posted the possibility of a T-shirt with a line drawing of a turned plug and the words "Ethics>Security". If that shirt came out, I'd buy it. Most people would have no idea what the line drawing was, let alone the words. The posts at the time seemed positive. Our ethics are greater than your security. Very important to live by that motto. Keep your ethics high, because security can be compromised. We could open that lock, but we won't, because it would be wrong to do so.

Gordon


Yep,I'd buy that too. Purely to support KP.com. I like the ethics and security suggestion too.
Last edited by MrAnybody on Sat May 18, 2013 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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