Southord Picks

[GWiens2001]

Considering the quality, workmanship, functionality and size, I personally feel that the price for a Bogota set handmade by Rai is quite good. It shows that he has skill and cares about the tools being made well.

Just my opinion, for what it is worth.

Gordon

[escher7]

I wonder whos jigglers they ripped off.....

As far as I know these are unique to Southord.

[escher7]

Actually when I first saw the photo of those jigglers, I thought I had seen something like it before, perhaps a photo on one of the forums, so I was really wondering...
and about the price of bogotas I handmake being too high, I have a tutorial which can help you make your own, for the investment of less than twenty dollars in files that you can get at a local hardware store, you can make hundreds of picks in this style and any other. sweeper bristle is available free. You will get much better with practice and in not very long will make excellent picks

I don't believe your picks are too expensive - in fact if I were you I would charge more. The point about the Southord version is that a beginner can buy one or two of the several picks they offer, for cheap. When he gets more advanced he will probably buy yours too given the high praise they have received. Southord also offers a few "Pagoda" designs that I have not seen in your style such as a curved half diamond. And although they don't mention the Bogota influence directly, they do say that they were asked to develop this line and received suggestions from their customers. It may not be fair, but they were meeting the demand for this type of pick and the fact that they are selling means there is such a demand.

Oh, and I am aware of your tutorials and in fact have made some of your designs. As a former custom knife maker I am familiar with metal work and coincidentally am in the process of researching the metal in sweeper bristles. The metal bristles are only part of the sweepers brushes and are used for the gutter work. Other brushes are nylon etc. for normal street surfaces. I know the bristles are carbon steel and initially are about a foot long. What I am not sure of is the exact formulation as there is no doubt they contain tungsten, molybdenum etc for toughness and durability. This is relevant because anyone wanting to heat treat the metal will run into trouble. Complex metals require more than the simple heating, quenching and tempering that you can get away with for simple carbon steel. Thus the best way to use the bristles is to leave the original treatment intact by not over-heating when grinding. Handwork is not a problem but electric grinders can overheat and soften metal unless it is dipped in water frequently.
The other concern is whether the bristles are affected by use in the sweeper. By the time you find these on the street they have been abused pretty badly and metal fatigue can reduce the quality of the metal. Again this depends upon the composition which I am trying to ascertain. Ideally someone should get a connection at one of the brush manufacturers and score a bunch of new bristles for distribution to the lock community. I have had an answer from one of the brush manufacturer techs, requesting more info but when he finds out I am not a potential customer he may ignore me.

Here is a pic just for fun:

[kilby]

Where I live the street sweeper bristles are nylon (well similar) so I cant get my hands on the useful ones (I have had conversations with the drivers as I wanted to get a few unused bristles)

If I was going to get a 'copy' of the Bogota I would tend towards the Sparrows version (and at least Sparrows are honest about the picks being copies)

[escher7]

Where I live the street sweeper bristles are nylon (well similar) so I cant get my hands on the useful ones (I have had conversations with the drivers as I wanted to get a few unused bristles)

If I was going to get a 'copy' of the Bogota I would tend towards the Sparrows version (and at least Sparrows are honest about the picks being copies)

I don't see any reference to Rai on the Sparrow site, just Wizwazzle. Sparrows copies have those "rubber" handles which in my opinion limit feedback. Also, if you look at the variety of "Pagoda" picks from Southord you will find they have all the bases covered. Once again, I do understand and agree that Southord should credit Rai, as should Sparrow. But even Toool sells Bogota knock-offs without proper credit.

[kilby]

I don't see any reference to Rai on the Sparrow site, just Wizwazzle. Sparrows copies have those "rubber" handles which in my opinion limit feedback. Also, if you look at the variety of "Pagoda" picks from Southord you will find they have all the bases covered. Once again, I do understand and agree that Southord should credit Rai, as should Sparrow. But even Toool sells Bogota knock-offs without proper credit.

I'm not trying to pick an argument over this, I have Southord picks and they are a decent and well priced product (especially in the UK)

Using the term Bogota (or even triple peak) for a pick will lead you very quickly to Rai and the original designs, by changing their name to Pagoda they are (in my opinion) deliberately obscuring their lineage and claiming that they have a unique product., additionally many of the pagoda 'family' are simply lifted from the rest of Rai's designs (apart from the weird sword shaped thing).

Of course they messed the sizes up and made most of them next to useless, which to me shows that they made some changes to avoid being a 100% copy and ended up producing something really ................... (err whats that word) ...... (hmmmmm).... stupid (or was it crap I'm not quite sure)

Southord did the same thing with their very silly 'Offset C rake" and 'Half Snowman' picks, just because somebody else made them Southord had to have them too (but with a quick renaming ceremony in the bar)

Don't get me wrong other pick makers use other peoples designs, but Southord seem particularly bad for renaming them to lay claim to a seemingly non existent design process.

I do have Southord picks and they are not a poor product (but they bundle random crap into their sets) but doing some of their own design work and leaving the names intact would be a good start.

I am considering buying some Petersons though as the Gem I have is really nice (but expensive in the UK)

[escher7]

I don't see any reference to Rai on the Sparrow site, just Wizwazzle. Sparrows copies have those "rubber" handles which in my opinion limit feedback. Also, if you look at the variety of "Pagoda" picks from Southord you will find they have all the bases covered. Once again, I do understand and agree that Southord should credit Rai, as should Sparrow. But even Toool sells Bogota knock-offs without proper credit.

I'm not trying to pick an argument over this, I have Southord picks and they are a decent and well priced product (especially in the UK)

Using the term Bogota (or even triple peak) for a pick will lead you very quickly to Rai and the original designs, by changing their name to Pagoda they are (in my opinion) deliberately obscuring their lineage and claiming that they have a unique product., additionally many of the pagoda 'family' are simply lifted from the rest of Rai's designs (apart from the weird sword shaped thing).

Of course they messed the sizes up and made most of them next to useless, which to me shows that they made some changes to avoid being a 100% copy and ended up producing something really ................... (err whats that word) ...... (hmmmmm).... stupid (or was it crap I'm not quite sure)

Southord did the same thing with their very silly 'Offset C rake" and 'Half Snowman' picks, just because somebody else made them Southord had to have them too (but with a quick renaming ceremony in the bar)

Don't get me wrong other pick makers use other peoples designs, but Southord seem particularly bad for renaming them to lay claim to a seemingly non existent design process.

I do have Southord picks and they are not a poor product (but they bundle random crap into their sets) but doing some of their own design work and leaving the names intact would be a good start.

I am considering buying some Petersons though as the Gem I have is really nice (but expensive in the UK)

No worries about an argument. We're both just expressing opinions. I actually like Southord's 2 and 3 hump Bogota copies. They open just about every lock I have tried them on, except really tough keyways.

And because so many folks are concerned about Southord's lack of acknowledgement, I have emailed them to take a look at this series of posts and maybe consider adding a mention of Rai to their website.

[ghost1]

Just got my sdj-11 jigglers all the way from across the pond just had to have a set after seeing delight boyds and bosnianbills videos, just had too say it " they fluffing ROCK" tried them on my old standard , a tight 5 pin euro cylinder with 3 spools thats a five minute spp, third key in and it pops tried it 3 times and totally repeatable no flook . Well worth the wait excellent work Boyd....

[ghost1]

Template, a bit blurry but is to scale on standard graph paper if you wanted to spend hours copying them onto spring steel instead of buying them at a very reasonable rate from the usual places (there are better high resolution pictures around but not to scale sooo) no i don't really expect they can be copied but just to give an idea of SCALE for those of us on the other side of the pond.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B41NHajYGBUWaHhVVk52M29wRFk/edit?usp=sharing

[rai]

Rai is not looking for acknowlegment from opportunistic parasites who ripped me off and made commercial copies without contacting me about
and contracting to pay me.
as usual, anyone who is handmaking these for themselves and friends is welcome to do so. Its the commercial exploitation without my participation that I object to.
I don't need recognition from parasites

[OneManClan]

mabey you shoulda patented them... the bogota is an awesome pick.

[GWiens2001]

Rai is not into making picks to get rich. He enjoys and takes pride in making a good product.

He also believes in integrity, honesty and honor... traits that are sadly lacking in today's society.

Gordon