Southord Picks

[escher7]

Southord's Pagoda picks are very well made knock-offs of Bogota picks. The set is $40, but you can order them separately for around $5 each. I like the two and three hump versions and for a total of $10 they are much cheaper than buying the real Bogota set. Southord also has a nice slim-line bent half-diamond for those rear high lifts. I find Southord products top of the line and much cheaper than the other top makers. Their warded lock keys, for example are $9.95 compared to others that charge as much as $35. The higher end stainless handled picks have spot welds instead of rivets, and are ground smooth. I have not tried their "High Yield" picks which have ABS ergonomic handles and .031" metal, but the thicker material would be unsuitable for narrow keyways although they claim it is much stronger. At $12 a pick, I will pass.

In summary, I wish I had found Southord before I bought my first set. I would encourage a beginner to buy one of their cheaper sets like the MPX-08, supplemented with a couple of Pagodas. And to find a copy of Dev Ollam's "Practical Lock Picking".

[GWiens2001]

I agree with the book recommendation - it is on my bookshelf, too. Along with another book by Deviant Ollam, Keys To The Kingdom.

Have not tried the Pagoda picks. I have been so happy with the extreme quality and care that Rai used in making the handmade Bogota sets I have. If one of mine were to disappear, would not hesitate to buy another set, available at www.SerePick.com. I also find Rai to be very reputable and knowledgeable.

I do agree that a decent set of picks (not a large set) can make learning easier as opposed to a cheap set that bends if you look cross-eyed at it.

Gordon

[MrAnybody]

I have been so happy with the extreme quality and care that Rai used in making the handmade Bogota sets I have. If one of mine were to disappear, would not hesitate to buy another set, available at www.SerePick.com. I also find Rai to be very reputable and knowledgeable.

I totally agreed with this. Rai is a gentlemen and a very skilled pick maker. I've got 5 pairs of his hand made picks (directly from him) and they are the business. No doubt about that. He also sells through Serepick, but prices are higher.

Personally, I'm always disappointed when anyone sees a potential in someone's creativeness / skill, and just plain rips it off with not so much as even a nod of recognition, let alone the courtesy of permission from the creator (in this case, Rai). That goes Sparrows too, among others. Yes, Southord's are "knock-offs". In my opinion, (and that's all it is) they're rip-off merchants to do that to a guy.

Most folk don't know this, so there's no issue there. But if there's anyone out there that does, and went for the knock-offs, then fuckin shame on you.

Anyhow, I got my little rant out.

[escher7]

I have been so happy with the extreme quality and care that Rai used in making the handmade Bogota sets I have. If one of mine were to disappear, would not hesitate to buy another set, available at www.SerePick.com. I also find Rai to be very reputable and knowledgeable.

I totally agreed with this. Rai is a gentlemen and a very skilled pick maker. I've got 5 pairs of his hand made picks (directly from him) and they are the business. No doubt about that. He also sells through Serepick, but prices are higher.

Personally, I'm always disappointed when anyone sees a potential in someone's creativeness / skill, and just plain rips it off with not so much as even a nod of recognition, let alone the courtesy of permission from the creator (in this case, Rai). That goes Sparrows too, among others. Yes, Southord's are "knock-offs". In my opinion, (and that's all it is) they're rip-off merchants to do that to a guy.

Most folk don't know this, so there's no issue there. But if there's anyone out there that does, and went for the knock-offs, then fuckin shame on you.

Anyhow, I got my little rant out.

Ethically I agree, but the original Bogota's are expensive, and I don't like the handle design although I know most do. The other view is that Southord is offering an alternative at a reasonable price, ($10 vs $40) and that is what free enterprise is all about. No one would argue that because McDonald's was first, Burger King shouldn't be allowed to sell burgers.

My other point was that beginners can supplement a basic set with a couple of Pagoda's without spending a bundle.

[ARF-GEF]

Escher if you made something extraordinary and in come some big company and started emulating you design you would be less of a fan of what you call "free enterprise"
I see that you only wanted to help beginners and I see the goodwill behind it. So I get the point in your argument, and it is a valid point to make, but unfortunately I don't agree with it.

I don't think it's "free enterprise" when a big company steals a smaller manufacturer's design. To me that seems to be a misunderstanding of the concept. Moral and actual laws prohibit such behaviour, and the fact that a big company can get away with it showcases the dark side of capitalism. I'm afraid when moneyed heavyweights can force their will on smaller enterprises leads to less innovation and is plain wrong (and not only morally). In my eyes that is the malformed, dehumanized, oversized and out of control capitalism which can lead to many problems as you may have noted in today's economic environment.

I'd say I'm with MrA & Gordon on this one, the least to do is to honour your fellow lockpicker who put in so much care and energy into making a truly outstanding product.
That is just my opinion of course

I would encourage a beginner to buy one of their cheaper sets like the MPX-08, supplemented with a couple of Pagodas. And to find a copy of Dev Ollam's "Practical Lock Picking".

Apart from the pagoda part, I kinda agree with what you wrote. Especially the book
A bit unrelated: Please, if you can afford it, don't just download the book illegally, but try to buy it.
This is a close community the least we can do is to support each other.

schoolmarmish mode ON

PS.: Being a person who is not a native sepaker I hate to mention it, but I think what you meant to say is morally not ethically.
The problem is exactly that it isn't considered unethical, but I'd say it's still amoral.

schoolmarmish mode OFF

[escher7]

Escher if you made something extraordinary and in come some big company and started emulating you design you would be less of a fan of what you call "free enterprise"
I see that you only wanted to help beginners and I see the goodwill behind it. So I get the point in your argument, and it is a valid point to make, but unfortunately I don't agree with it.

I don't think it's "free enterprise" when a big company steals a smaller manufacturer's design. To me that seems to be a misunderstanding of the concept. Moral and actual laws prohibit such behaviour, and the fact that a big company can get away with it showcases the dark side of capitalism. I'm afraid when moneyed heavyweights can force their will on smaller enterprises leads to less innovation and is plain wrong (and not only morally). In my eyes that is the malformed, dehumanized, oversized and out of control capitalism which can lead to many problems as you may have noted in today's economic environment.

I'd say I'm with MrA & Gordon on this one, the least to do is to honour your fellow lockpicker who put in so much care and energy into making a truly outstanding product.
That is just my opinion of course :

I would encourage a beginner to buy one of their cheaper sets like the MPX-08, supplemented with a couple of Pagodas. And to find a copy of Dev Ollam's "Practical Lock Picking".

Apart from the pagoda part, I kinda agree with what you wrote. Especially the book
A bit unrelated: Please, if you can afford it, don't just download the book illegally, but try to buy it.
This is a close community the least we can do is to support each other.

schoolmarmish mode ON

PS.: Being a person who is not a native sepaker I hate to mention it, but I think what you meant to say is morally not ethically.
The problem is exactly that it isn't considered unethical, but I'd say it's still amoral.

schoolmarmish mode OFF :



Lawyer mode on: (35 years - now retired)

[/Ethics is the philosophical study of morality. The word is also commonly used interchangeably with 'morality' to mean the subject matter of this study; and sometimes it is used more narrowly to mean the moral principles of a particular tradition, group, or individual. Christian ethics and Albert Schweitzer's ethics are examples."
-- John Deigh in Robert Audi (ed), The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy, 1995]

Lawyer mode off

For more confusion: http://everyday-ethics.org/2008/11/ethi ... -it-seems/

>

The protection offered to inventors is a patent, as I now find Tobias did with his Medeco by-pass keys. Admittedly expensive, it is the way to go. In my opinion Southord has improved the picks by putting a standard handle on them, not to mention that their patterns are close but not exactly the same. They are merely an alternative, and I believe that those who want the originals (including me) will buy them.

As a (hopefully) final word, I agree with you both ethically and morally but not practically.

[ARF-GEF]

The protection offered to inventors is a patent

I see.

Damn This Elijah Walter guy really has some time to waste before he gets to the point...

Let's take a quote from the site you linked to :"Morals, quite simply, are beliefs about right and wrong conduct."
I'm afraid you might be wrong on this one. It is amoral, because I hold this conduct in my framework of values wrong. It's not unethical, since A.) I don't present a "a systemic and reasoned basis for making statements" (Quoted from the site you linked) and B.) it is not unaccepted by our culture our a wider group.

But I'm going to use you own quote if I may:
"...[ethics] is used more narrowly to mean the moral principles of a particular tradition, group, or individual. ..."
(-- John Deigh in Robert Audi (ed), The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy, 1995])

So to sum it up ethics is more like a rigid widely accepted framework while morality is what you hold for good or bad. Morals is what I believe to be wrong.
And it's exactly what I meant. It's not unethical, since the general population has no problem with it, but in my eyes it's immoral, since I hold it for bad.
But I put it more softly, if you read my last sentence, I didn't go as far to say it's immoral, I called it amoral. With which I wanted to say, that southord probably did not think too much about whether it's right or wrong, just did it. (Thus their decision was from their point of view amoral (but not immoral.)

I have to ask, and please don't take it the bad way, I mean no offence : did you even read the site you linked to and the quotation you provided?

Here's a more straightforward explanation:
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Ethics_vs_Morals
Please read the first part.

And read this:
http://www.philosophersbeard.org/2010/1 ... thics.html
You find it summed up no too badly there: "Morality is primarily about making the correct choices, while ethics is about proper reasoning."
There is an interesting thought experiment for those who are not too familiar with this branch of philosophy: the "trolley problem"

But actually:
It's not really important whether it's amoral or immoral or moral, ethical unethical. What I meant to say, and maybe I put it the wrong way: is that I personally dislike this practice. (So I think it was immoral )

But thank you escher, I haven't had such an interesting discourse about ethics morality and this general branch of philosophy in a while I greatly enjoyed reading up on the topic again and never expected to talk about it here:)

[escher7]

From the Southord SouthOrd Pagoda Lock Picks

At the request of numerous customers, we have created a new line of lock picks – the SouthOrd Pagoda Picks.
We extend a special thank you to those who assisted in their creation by expressing their ideas for design.:

[escher7]

And finally, Southord has a new set of jigglers for pin tumbler locks which appear to work well, even on European locks. For some reason they are not on the normal website so the link is:

http://www.southord.com/Lock-Picking-Tools/SDJ-11.html

There is an impressive video there as well.

[kilby]

I have the Titanium version from Southord and would not wish for any other style of handle (after getting used with them) including the fact that they live clipped into a jacket pocket)

I have Southord picks and like them but there is literally a world of difference in the build quality and that's something that you have to pay for.

As for the jigglers it helps a lot when you know the lock, in the wild they're somewhat less impressive (and very frustrating)

[escher7]

I have the Titanium version from Southord and would not wish for any other style of handle (after getting used with them) including the fact that they live clipped into a jacket pocket)

I have Southord picks and like them but there is literally a world of difference in the build quality and that's something that you have to pay for.

As for the jigglers it helps a lot when you know the lock, in the wild they're somewhat less impressive (and very frustrating)

I think you meant you have the titanium version from Sere. Understood - I know lots of people like the original version.

Re the jigglers, I have not tried them so I have no opinion other than what I see on their video. I do agree that by the time you figure out the correct one to use you could have picked the lock.

[kilby]

I have the Titanium version from Southord and would not wish for any other style of handle (after getting used with them) including the fact that they live clipped into a jacket pocket)
I think you meant you have the titanium version from Sere. Understood - I know lots of people like the original version.

Re the jigglers, I have not tried them so I have no opinion other than what I see on their video. I do agree that by the time you figure out the correct one to use you could have picked the lock.

Indeed, I was posting from my phone and as usual the spell checker decided to to it's own thing.

I thought the original Bogota would be annoying and that I would hate it (I didn't) infact I tend to use them as tension wrenches even when SPPing

I will definitely have to find something with the same profile to make myself some bent tension wrenches

[rai]

I wonder whos jigglers they ripped off.....

[kilby]

I wonder whos jigglers they ripped off.....

Probably every other companys ripoff jigglers

In all honesty outside of the effects pedal industry I have never seen anything like the blatent robbing of other peoples ideas. I truly feel bad for those who come up with something different and then see 2nd rate copies turn up and claim that they actually did some research to create a new product.

Rai I love the Bogota design and would have chosen the customs that Sere sell, but I cause regular steel to rust so I went for the Ti version

[rai]

Actually when I first saw the photo of those jigglers, I thought I had seen something like it before, perhaps a photo on one of the forums, so I was really wondering...
and about the price of bogotas I handmake being too high, I have a tutorial which can help you make your own, for the investment of less than twenty dollars in files that you can get at a local hardware store, you can make hundreds of picks in this style and any other. sweeper bristle is available free. You will get much better with practice and in not very long will make excellent picks