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Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:03 pm
by Eazy123
femurat wrote:If you made the high low tests with numbers of other gates they give unexpected results. Which numbers did you use for the tests?

Cheers :)


D'OH.....
Image

I used 40 and 60 for the tests, both of the other gate #s...*shakes head*

Thank you! I'll try something like 30 and 70. Although - what if this was a lock I didn't know the combo to? I would have incorrectly concluded 50 was gate 1 and kept going from there...

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:53 pm
by capt-dunc
50 could also be a low spot on one of the other wheels. never ignore a result and layer your own opinions or supposed knowledge on top.


you could run 2 sets of wheels tests, going +/- 10 as you did and +/- 5.

the +/- 5 often gives good results, since neighbouring numbers in a combo shouldn't be within 5 of each other, and there's sometimes a rise either side of a gate which will give good wheel test results.

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:54 pm
by MartinHewitt
I prefer to test with +/- 5, at least with my 6730, because the wheels seem to be higher next to the gate than 10 off. I believe this is characteristic for the S&G wheels, but my sample group is to small for a real generalization.

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:40 pm
by Eazy123
Thanks guys. I did just try 30 and 70 as well as 35 and 65 but the first came up with wheel 1 again and the second came out at wheel 2 but by a minute amount (1/8). I will try 45 and 55 and see how that goes.

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:14 pm
by MartinHewitt
+/- 20 is really far off. There can happen a lot.

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:42 pm
by Eazy123
Well, I gave up for now on the SG. It seems to have lower tolerances than the LaGard so I went with that and I had a family member change the combination to something I wouldn't know, and lo and behold this morning I got it - well, sorta. When I would graph and check the wheel number and when I was certain I had it, I would look at the wheel through the cutaway to make sure I had it and sure enough I did.

So today I will change it to something I'll forget easily and tonight I will do it without looking at all.

One thing, though - I see others' graphs and it seems like people get obvious gate indications, but mine are very subtle. How do peoples' graphs jump so wildly on a gate?

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:02 pm
by MartinHewitt
The 3330 is normally more difficult than the 6730. The readings change very much when you change direction. It is also more common that one wheel hides the gate of another wheel. But there are production variations and your 6730 might be more difficult than your 3330.

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:54 am
by Eazy123
My SG tends to "roll back" about 1/8 of a number no matter what fraction of a number I'm on, I wonder if that's why it's harder for me. The LG will stay where I'm at (unless I'm at a contact point which is understandable) and I seem to be able to take readings much easier.

I also made my own graph in Illustrator for amplifying, since the Locksmiths guide to manipulation doesn't include one. I feel that having a graph of 1/8 number is helpful, while it TLGTA only tracks in 1/4 of a number. It's been helpful, at least this time around. Still having trouble with figuring out what wheel the number is on when I get a number.

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:29 pm
by castle 2
Eazy123 wrote:My SG tends to "roll back" about 1/8 of a number no matter what fraction of a number I'm on, I wonder if that's why it's harder for me. The LG will stay where I'm at (unless I'm at a contact point which is understandable) and I seem to be able to take readings much easier.

I also made my own graph in Illustrator for amplifying, since the Locksmiths guide to manipulation doesn't include one. I feel that having a graph of 1/8 number is helpful, while it TLGTA only tracks in 1/4 of a number. It's been helpful, at least this time around. Still having trouble with figuring out what wheel the number is on when I get a number.


Do you have a copy of lss+ or not? The information in that is fantastic...?

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:06 am
by Eazy123
castle 2 wrote:
Eazy123 wrote:My SG tends to "roll back" about 1/8 of a number no matter what fraction of a number I'm on, I wonder if that's why it's harder for me. The LG will stay where I'm at (unless I'm at a contact point which is understandable) and I seem to be able to take readings much easier.

I also made my own graph in Illustrator for amplifying, since the Locksmiths guide to manipulation doesn't include one. I feel that having a graph of 1/8 number is helpful, while it TLGTA only tracks in 1/4 of a number. It's been helpful, at least this time around. Still having trouble with figuring out what wheel the number is on when I get a number.


Do you have a copy of lss+ or not? The information in that is fantastic...?


I don't. Actually never heard of it. I've been picking locks without a book for the last 2 years and never needed a book so I never read it.

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:18 am
by Eazy123
Ok, so I quit with the LaGard for now and picked up the SG. Boy, do the gates show up more clearly with that one. And figuring out which wheel each number is on was much easier.

My only issue now is - I have the second and third number. Is there an easier way to get the first number without dialing 0, 24, 85, 1-24-85 etc? I went by twos from 0 to 98 with no luck and I know this lock has a tolerance of maybe .5. I'm tempted to look inside but hesitant.

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:55 am
by Jaakko Fagerlund
Eazy123 wrote:Ok, so I quit with the LaGard for now and picked up the SG. Boy, do the gates show up more clearly with that one. And figuring out which wheel each number is on was much easier.

My only issue now is - I have the second and third number. Is there an easier way to get the first number without dialing 0, 24, 85, 1-24-85 etc? I went by twos from 0 to 98 with no luck and I know this lock has a tolerance of maybe .5. I'm tempted to look inside but hesitant.

Nope, that's the name of the game with wheel one. Just as a precaution, I would graph it or at least map it in my head for low spots in case it doesn't open, so I can park it somewhere low and recheck my 2nd and 3rd wheels.

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:49 pm
by Eazy123
Jaakko Fagerlund wrote:
Eazy123 wrote:Ok, so I quit with the LaGard for now and picked up the SG. Boy, do the gates show up more clearly with that one. And figuring out which wheel each number is on was much easier.

My only issue now is - I have the second and third number. Is there an easier way to get the first number without dialing 0, 24, 85, 1-24-85 etc? I went by twos from 0 to 98 with no luck and I know this lock has a tolerance of maybe .5. I'm tempted to look inside but hesitant.

Nope, that's the name of the game with wheel one. Just as a precaution, I would graph it or at least map it in my head for low spots in case it doesn't open, so I can park it somewhere low and recheck my 2nd and 3rd wheels.


Thanks!

I DID IT!! What a rush!!!

Turns out it was 48-23-85. While testing this morning I must have overturned slightly at the second number, because once I got it open, I tried 48-24-85 and was confused because it didn't work. I learned that I need to be more precise and consistent on the dial when recording. I also need to go over my graph for the 2nd number and see where I read wrong.

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:53 pm
by femurat
Congrats on the opening!

It's a very good habit to graph the last number. As Jaakko said, if you got one of the other numbers wrong you haven't wasted your time in checking the last wheel. If you got the lock open, well, you just wasted a few minutes.

Cheers :)

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:27 pm
by Eazy123
femurat wrote:Congrats on the opening!

It's a very good habit to graph the last number. As Jaakko said, if you got one of the other numbers wrong you haven't wasted your time in checking the last wheel. If you got the lock open, well, you just wasted a few minutes.

Cheers :)


Thank you, femurat, especially for the great write up to get me started.

Am I right in assuming that the same lock will reveal gates in the same order no matter what the combination is changed to, due to the imperfections in manufacturing of the discs (much like how a lock will usually pick in the same binding order due to imperfections in the drilling of chambers)?