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Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:36 am
by femurat
Well done! Looks like there's a gate around 45. Finding the first number is always exciting, you're almost halfway.

Now I'd amplify readings from 35 to 55 to check gate center. Then you have to find which of the three wheels has the gate in that position... if you have read TNL guide to manipulation, it should be easy. Let us know how you proceed :)

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:12 am
by jfw
I amplified the previous graph and it came out the same. Ok here is my "Gate Center" graph. I did this EXACTLY how it is shown in TNL. So if I did it wrong please let me know, as you can see I skipped some steps on the chart just like they did in the book. I came to the conclusion that there is a combo gate on wheel 2 of 47. Here is the graph below.

LOCK2.jpg


The book is very confusing on the 2nd graph. How should I go about doing the 2nd graph? Thanks femurat!

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:46 am
by femurat
Are you sure the gate at 47 isn't on wheel #3? The graph on the right shows it clearly. Double check which wheel is the gate on. If you're not sure take the test again. It's very important.

A note about what you call left and right contact points. I think you swapped them. Let's say that if I have a contact point while rotating left, CCW, I call it RIGHT contact point. It's a bit confusing but if you look at the picture with the red dots in my tutorial it should be clear. This does not affect at all your manipulation skills, you can call them whatever you want, it's just strange if you talk with others about left contact point and they think it's the right contact point.

I'm going away for a couple of weeks, so I left you with your summer project. Hope to came back and read that you did it.

Good luck :)

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:46 pm
by jfw
If I go to the middle 10, and go left CCW to 14, then 14 is a left contact when you look at the back of the lock. If I go CW to 5 then 5 is my right contact from the back of the lock. But if I just look at the contacts from the front then yes you're right I mixed them up. Also today I was on a roadtrip with the safe owner and my curiosity got the best of me and I asked if 47 was a number, he said no. But 35 is a number on the 3rd wheel. I didn't even get a reading on 35! So I don't think my readings for the first graph were accurate enough? And I don't think I can use a number that far away :???: Let me know what you recommend, but you're right most likely I have to do the 2nd chart over again. Also I have a LaGard in the mail so I can SEE the wheels and figure this will help me a lot. I really don't know why I get different readings from the first graph, I did it as precisely as possible. LET ME KNOW! And have a nice vacation bro. Just post a reply on your return. PEACE. :cool:

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:05 am
by fgarci03
I know this post is rather old.

But, thank you femurat for this.
Untill now all the manipulation books I've read, I've done it without an actual lock to follow the guidelines. So I've never been able to fully understand how manipulation works and how to make and interpret a graph.

With your paper, it was easy (not the manipulation, but to understand it). SOOO simple!

I'm looking forward to start manipulation in a few days and this guide will be my true bible, as it explains everything I need to start off, with simple concepts anyone would understand.

Thank you for this :salute:

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:47 am
by femurat
You're welcome my friend :-)

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:43 pm
by fgarci03
So. I've been analysing your first graph and I got to some conclusions, I'd hope someone could confirm or deny:

You found a gate at 50. Looking at the graph, I see a slightly biger variation on 50, whether it's on the left or right contact point.
That leads me to assume that you can take readings on any of the two without the other.
Yes, I know that would lead to sometimes unconclusive results and the only way to confirm is having BOTH, but is it a possible approach? Or just a coincidence?

I'm also strugling with this. Which one is the left and right contact point? I would assume that the left is 6 and the right is 12. What means the right contact point is the one with a slight slope on the drive cam. And the left is the only with a big gap. Is this correct?

So it would make sense that on the graph, the contact point near 6 would show a much more suddent variation, and a fainter variation on 12. But it's the opposite. So what am I missing here?

This may sound pretty obvious, but I'm looking at images, and not at a lock :???:

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:12 pm
by Libertyclicks
fgarci03 wrote:You found a gate at 50. Looking at the graph, I see a slightly biger variation on 50, whether it's on the left or right contact point.

I hope I'm not on your toes here Femurat,
The "tightening" of the contact points at 50 hints at a gate. Right below that he has "amplified" the area around 50 by taking readings every increment to get a more defined view of the suspicious area. After he did that he found it was actually 51 not 50.
fgarci03 wrote:That leads me to assume that you can take readings on any of the two without the other.

Not exactly, most locks read in a certain order, wheel 3 first, then wheel 2, then wheel 1. But not all of them read that way. This graph does tell which number in the combo he found, it just shows a number.
fgarci03 wrote:Yes, I know that would lead to sometimes unconclusive results and the only way to confirm is having BOTH, but is it a possible approach? Or just a coincidence?

I'm not sure I follow what you mean .... but if you measure one wheel alone then you know which wheel the gate is on (that wheel) . If you measure multiple wheels, then you have to do extra tests to ensure you know which wheel a gate is on.
fgarci03 wrote:I'm also strugling with this. Which one is the left and right contact point? I would assume that the left is 6 and the right is 12. What means the right contact point is the one with a slight slope on the drive cam. And the left is the only with a big gap. Is this correct?

Yes, the right contact point is the sloped one. Because of the slope of the drive cam, good indications are more obvious on the right contact point.
The left contact point should feel like a brick wall by comparison to the right contact point.
fgarci03 wrote:So it would make sense that on the graph, the contact point near 6 would show a much more suddent variation, and a fainter variation on 12. But it's the opposite. So what am I missing here?

Your assumption about the left contact point being easier to read is right and wrong at the same time.
It's hard to MISS the left contact point, but because it is NOT SLOPED like the right contact point, it is more difficult to see differences in it.

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 3:45 am
by fgarci03
Libertyclicks wrote:
fgarci03 wrote:That leads me to assume that you can take readings on any of the two without the other.


Not exactly, most locks read in a certain order, wheel 3 first, then wheel 2, then wheel 1. But not all of them read that way. This graph does tell which number in the combo he found, it just shows a number.
fgarci03 wrote:Yes, I know that would lead to sometimes unconclusive results and the only way to confirm is having BOTH, but is it a possible approach? Or just a coincidence?


I'm not sure I follow what you mean .... but if you measure one wheel alone then you know which wheel the gate is on (that wheel) . If you measure multiple wheels, then you have to do extra tests to ensure you know which wheel a gate is on.


I didn't make myself clear :mrgreen:
What I mean on "my" first quote is that you can read the gates just by taking note of one of the contact points. On each wheel of course. On either graph of the two contact points you can (in this case at least) clearly see where the gate is without needing to take a reading on the other contact point.

And of course to be sure you would need to take readings on the two, as it may lead to frustations. But it seems that sometimes you can just take readings on one of them.


All the rest, I understand now. Thank you for your help Libertyclicks :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:14 pm
by femurat
Thanks Libertyclicks for your reply. You're definitely not on my toes (and you're right by the way).

fgarci03, when I was starting out I measured and graphed both contact points. Now I just check the right contact point and don't graph it. It can be done but it requires some experience so I suggest you to check both for now.

Keep in mind that sometimes you need to check both contact points to test the depth of the fence. One point is not enough to determine it. When checking just one, usually the right one, you're just guessing that the other one isn't varying much and ignoring it, but this is not true. Sometimes the left contact point graph has a curve that reveal the gate center is a little off of the right contact point graph center. In fact if you look at the graph you're referring to, as Libertyclicks suggested, the gate could have been 50, the shortest reading on my graph. But it actually is 51 and I found it out by looking at the left contact point graph, that clearly shows it with its 3 high points at 50, 51 and 52.
Before anybody asks, in this case, with just the right contact point graph, the gate center would have been 50 and a half because there is a better reading at 52 than at 49 but this is not the point here.

Cheers :)

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:09 am
by fgarci03
Thanks femurat and Libertyclicks!

@femurat: Yes I do want to start out "the right" way and take every thing to the tinniest detail, so I can properly learn the art, and not just the tricks. But now that I understand a little bit more what graphs mean, I figured that out and decided to ask to see if it's a proper technique to save time, or just a coincidence!

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2014 4:16 pm
by pewpew
can someone explain me how manipulate safe lock without contact points? 4 example aiko safe 50. There are no fence at all, all u need is line all 4 notches 2 open it.

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:55 am
by femurat
Hey pewpew, you're talking about a direct entry safe, a completely different one. This post may be useful viewtopic.php?p=82550#p82550

Good Luck :)

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:53 pm
by pewpew
femurat wrote:Hey pewpew, you're talking about a direct entry safe, a completely different one. This post may be useful viewtopic.php?p=82550#p82550

Good Luck :)

Thank you femurat

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:02 am
by Alexandar_Case
Thanks femurat for this post. I will be reading through this post several times as I start to learn manipulation.