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Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:51 pm
by uklockpicker
Brilliant :hbg: thank you very much for your time and effort in this :cool:
excellent read :salute:

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:40 pm
by WhiteGraphite
Excellent tutorial, Femurat. It will be invaluable when I finally get my hands on a safe combination lock.

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:22 am
by femurat
Thanks to all for the kind words :D

abroxis, the wooden lock you show is very interesting. Only downside is that it has a unchangeable combination. You could substitute the fixed wooden pins with some bolts, so you can change the combo ;)

datagram, your list is very precious. Thanks :)

steveslock, you have some good points. I was a bit unsure about making a tutorial on safe manipulation. Then I thought that everything was already out there, like the document I link at the beginning of my first post, so I'm not disclosing anything new. Based on this idea I made my decision.
I agree 100% about the invaluable help of a trainer also. But if you just want to give it a try, buying a lock and spending a few hours on your own is enough. Once you've tried and liked it, you're free to take a course. I'm sure nobody becomes a safe tech after reading a tutorial. As I said, a whole book is not enough...

WhiteGraphite, I started with a group 2, so I guess you can do the same. But if you have a less difficult lock handy, do try it. An easier and less frustrating task is not a bad thing.

Good luck :)

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:57 pm
by jfw
Ok. Certain parts of the book I am reading to learn manipulation have stumped me. I am trying to manipulate a S&G 6730 group 2 lock. This is on a safe so I can't see the moving parts, I just don't have the money to buy a cutaway type lock as of yet. My left contact point is 14, the right is 5. In the book the left contact is 89 1/8, and right is 97 1/8. In the book he starts at 0 ( or 100 ) and moves left to the contact point 97 1/2. Would I start at 10? and move to 5? Or then 5 to 7.5? Or do I start at 100 and go round to 5? Sorry I am lost. Also to feel the right contact point 5, I must go past it to 14, then right back to 5 in order to feel it. Please help me with this so I can start my graph. Also I realize if the right contact is more then the left, you add 100? I just don't know how many times to turn etc etc. Sorry if my questions are so novice, I am new at this but want to learn. I've been doing the graph, then losing confidence, realizing i'm probably not doing this wrong. Let me know bro! Thanks.

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:28 am
by Riyame
http://www.ebay.com/itm/150715339596

Just take the back off and instant cutaway :D

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:38 am
by femurat
Hey jfw, take it easy :) As Riyame suggested, take the back off so you can see the moving parts. This is a very important step in learning manipulation. Before worrying about contact points and graphs you should look inside the lock while rotating the dial. Once you've understood the inner workings, the manipulation procedure will be clear and easy.

To answer your question, I'd start at 0 and graph a full turn. No matter where contact points are, the first thing to do is check contact area with all wheels together, you may start rotating them Right but it's not a rule, Left could do too. So get ready for your first graph and work carefully. If you're not sure, take the measurement again.

Good luck :)

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:11 pm
by jfw
Ok well, another question, I think I understand how to take the left contact, but how do I take the right contact? I go to 0 then left to 14 (then graph that to 100), then right 5 (then graph that to 100 as well)? The back to 97.5? Or 0 left to 14, back to 0, then left to 5 (graphing seperately)? I'm stuck. :shock:

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:38 am
by femurat
Let's assume you start by mapping all wheels Right.

a) Make 4 full turns R and stop at 0.
b) Turn L almost a full turn, stopping at around 10.
c) Now you are in the middle of your contact area and can easily check contact points at 5 and 14.

Then turn L until you reach the wheel parked at 0 and continue turning 2,5 numbers, so you move them at 2,5.
Repeat b and c...

Hope this is clear. Try it out and let me know what are you going to do to check contact points once you reach 5 with your wheels :mrgreen:

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:09 pm
by jfw
Once you reach 5, turn left almost full turn, stop at 10. Check contact point 5 and 14. Then turn left until get to 5, continue turning from 5 to 7.5? Repeat b & c?
Let me know if that's correct. :D

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:58 am
by femurat
YOU let me know if your method is correct :twisted:

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:10 am
by jfw
I don't know, i'll try on my S&G 6730 later today, but it's not cutaway. I'll let you know.

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:35 am
by femurat
:mrgreen:

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:41 pm
by jfw
Also, if you make a mistake doing contact points say for the number 82.5? Can I just reset the wheels, go to 82.5, then redo the contact points? Or do you have to restart the whole process? Let me know. Also sometimes when I try to take my contact points and go 10 (middle) and then to 5 1/2 ( right contact point) to 14 (left), The dial get stuck at 10, well 12, which isn't even on the graph, i get that at 47.5. but when I push thru, or turn back and forth it goes back to 14. I could have mistakenly done a 2nd rotation. Hope my questions help others, and your help is invaluable.

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:44 am
by femurat
jfw wrote:Also, if you make a mistake doing contact points say for the number 82.5? Can I just reset the wheels, go to 82.5, then redo the contact points? Or do you have to restart the whole process? Let me know.


No need to start over. You can reset the wheels at any time by turning them 4 times. Stop at the desired number and continue your measurements from there.

jfw wrote:Also sometimes when I try to take my contact points and go 10 (middle) and then to 5 1/2 ( right contact point) to 14 (left), The dial get stuck at 10, well 12, which isn't even on the graph, i get that at 47.5. but when I push thru, or turn back and forth it goes back to 14. I could have mistakenly done a 2nd rotation. Hope my questions help others, and your help is invaluable.


Yes you could have made a mistake in dialing. It could be a defective wheel. It could be a gate... Reset the wheels and dial again 47,5. If the strange spot is still there you may have found a number of your combo, it's 12.

Cheers :)

Re: Getting started with manipulation

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:30 pm
by jfw
OK! So I redid my graph, but I did a) b) and c) over each time for each number. It seems to have given me cleaner results. This is a S&G 6730 lock. Here is the results of my graph. Also there was a bit of "end play" on the dial, but I think I worked around it. I forgot to add 100, but they are just 5 1/2 and 14. Also I didn't use a magnifying glass as i've got good glasses which I believe help my eyes enough for this.

LOCK.jpg


What should I do next?