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Lockpicking Tool Templates

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Aedalas

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Post Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:38 pm

Re: Lockpicking Tool Templates

abroxis wrote:Where does one buy legit Raimundo picks from.

Rai are you accepting orders from end users or wholesale only?


http://serepick.com/custom.html

Make sure it's the custom page, the other ones are only licensed.
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jeffmoss26

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Post Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:42 pm

Re: Lockpicking Tool Templates

I too am a member of LP101 but rarely post...I read a lot of the threads, and some people do rub me the wrong way. For instance, every time I read a reply made by Evan, I hear a guy yelling at people for not knowing as much as he does. His posts come off as condescending in most cases, and quite frankly it just makes me mad. I always thought we were supposed to help each other.
Have I mentioned that I like Keypicking just a bit more? :D
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elbowmacaroni

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Post Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:55 am

Re: Lockpicking Tool Templates

Rai, I totally understand your frustration. However, at this juncture even if you had protected the design under patent, the patent would be quite expired at this point. Yes, they should give you credit, and the SHOULD make them fucking correctly too. Any of the commercial "bagota-ish" picks I've seen are complete and utter crap in comparison not to mention the spacing is nowhere near correct. Yes, they can be used effectively; however, not as effectively as your design and I will stick by that assessment as long as crappy copies are made and then referred to as bogotas... they aren't, they are DIFFERENT. They LOOK similar, but they are distinctly different rakes. They should at the very least be calling them something else as they are only inspired by your design and are not even close in design other than having the multiple peaks/valleys. They are certainly not the lock slaying SOBs that the bogotas you designed and make (as well as several others that are also making them for serepick out of Ti and whatever.) The end all be all of bogotas is, if you want to develop an opinion about them, you absolutely MUST use ones made to Rai's design as the other designs are merely sorry reproductions that do not come even close to the original.

-Elbow

rai wrote:they speak of those, which seems plural. its not me. im not plural, so yeah I think its a dick thing to say and it looks like they blew it on copying them too
there are obvious thin spots that will cause stress to build on a small area.

bad copies with the bogota name will drag down the reputation of my stuff except among those who know them.

That must be the major manufacturer sparrows was refering to. looks like they did not make real bogotas, just stole the pick tips from me and made them in an inferior copy

jerks
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elbowmacaroni

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Post Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:01 am

Re: Lockpicking Tool Templates

Evan chaps your ass? Welcome to the club!

jeffmoss26 wrote:I too am a member of LP101 but rarely post...I read a lot of the threads, and some people do rub me the wrong way. For instance, every time I read a reply made by Evan, I hear a guy yelling at people for not knowing as much as he does. His posts come off as condescending in most cases, and quite frankly it just makes me mad. I always thought we were supposed to help each other.
Have I mentioned that I like Keypicking just a bit more? :D
"Cave ab homine unius libri" - Beware of anyone who has just one book

(2014.02.09 - 23:26:03) huxleypig: i freaking love cream
(2014.02.09 - 23:27:11) huxleypig: hey, come on, cream is nice
(2014.02.09 - 23:27:37) huxleypig: aww, i suddenly feel very sick

(23:37:46) LocksmithArmy: you should see my school girl outfit
(23:37:50) LocksmithArmy: wait... what

(13:19:50) xeo: that chick will never be satisfied by a real dick
(13:19:54) NNFAK: I would man...

(22:59:49) PhoneMan: how do you let a forum die if users keep using it? kill the servers?

May those who love us, love us; and those who don't love us, may God turn their hearts; and if He doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles so we'll know them by their limping

If someone had prince albert in a can, does that mean they'd have a killer codpiece?

(00:52:02) WolfSpring: elbow could sell a sandbox to an egyptian
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piotr

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Post Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:44 am

Re: Lockpicking Tool Templates

rai wrote:Scott Rendell of Storm lockpicks has a lot in common with Romstar, Frank Spencer, but negociations with him were interrupted by my computer being hacked, with 32 copies of some virus and my yahoo email password being changed repeatedly.
More recently he has just been stringing me along with romstar like promises and "its in the mail" bushit.


My experience of Storm -- as a consumer -- has been, so far, pleasant. I'm getting the impression that they may treat their customers better than their business partners. Their first generation of picks looked like they had been designed by someone with freakishly long fingers but to their credit they took the criticism on board and corrected this design flaw. They still haven't got their hook pick metrics correct but I understand they are working to rectify this. A bit odd to get the metrics of an essential pick wrong, I know. I'm quite disappointed to read this about Storm because I have in the past recommended them as a source of curve picks for those that are unable to purchase the Falle-Safe set but wanted curves.
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piotr

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Post Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:31 am

Re: Lockpicking Tool Templates

elbowmacaroni wrote:Rai, I totally understand your frustration. However, at this juncture even if you had protected the design under patent, the patent would be quite expired at this point.


I think a trademark would have been more suitable in this instance. The word "Bogota" in the context of lock manipulation tools would be registrable as what is termed an arbitrary trademark. An arbitrary trademark is a word with an existing meaning (in one context) which is applied in a context which has no distinctive meaning or identity. Examples of arbitrary trademarks include Chicago (Lock Company), Apple (Computers), Master (Locks), BlackBerry (Smartphones and Tablets), Silhouette (Vinyl Cutters), Canon Cameras, Fargo (Printers) and Alps (Printers). My impression is that Rai doesn't mind so much that people are reproducing his design but rather that by calling their picks "Bogotas" or "Bogota" they are implying that Rai was somehow involved in their production either directly or that they carry his endorsement. Had "Bogota" been registered as a trademark the non-Raimundo products would not have been able to legally carry the name "Bogota". Also, trademarks don't have an expiry date, they can be retained indefinitely (as long as they are used; although some jurisdictions require renewal every 10 years). They will expire only if they fall into dis-use. But of course trademarks -- just like patents -- need to be protected in court and this can be prohibitively expensive for the small business.
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rai

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Post Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:59 pm

Re: Lockpicking Tool Templates

Thanks for that, your posts are always enlightening Piotr.

I own several Canon cameras, interestingly the name comes from kannon, goddess of mercy, guanshiyin, who listens to the crys of the world.
Not Canon as in canon law
canon of lex
or cannon, ultimo ratio regnum, the last arguement of kings (from a time when the world was ruled by hereditary warlords and a mafiosi called aristocracy.)
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elbowmacaroni

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Post Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:21 am

Re: Lockpicking Tool Templates

piotr wrote:
elbowmacaroni wrote:Rai, I totally understand your frustration. However, at this juncture even if you had protected the design under patent, the patent would be quite expired at this point.


I think a trademark would have been more suitable in this instance. The word "Bogota" in the context of lock manipulation tools would be registrable as what is termed an arbitrary trademark. An arbitrary trademark is a word with an existing meaning (in one context) which is applied in a context which has no distinctive meaning or identity. Examples of arbitrary trademarks include Chicago (Lock Company), Apple (Computers), Master (Locks), BlackBerry (Smartphones and Tablets), Silhouette (Vinyl Cutters), Canon Cameras, Fargo (Printers) and Alps (Printers). My impression is that Rai doesn't mind so much that people are reproducing his design but rather that by calling their picks "Bogotas" or "Bogota" they are implying that Rai was somehow involved in their production either directly or that they carry his endorsement. Had "Bogota" been registered as a trademark the non-Raimundo products would not have been able to legally carry the name "Bogota". Also, trademarks don't have an expiry date, they can be retained indefinitely (as long as they are used; although some jurisdictions require renewal every 10 years). They will expire only if they fall into dis-use. But of course trademarks -- just like patents -- need to be protected in court and this can be prohibitively expensive for the small business.



Yes, perhaps so, perhaps not.. trademark is an interesting branch of law here... Most likely so. However, that would allow them to reproduce the picks under a different name which honestly with what 99% of them out there are calling bogotas is a fucking shame so maybe it would be better if it hadn't fallen into a generic term category without prior trademark protection. I also gather that he is taking umbrage with the fact that they are producing IMHO a VASTLY inferior product under the same name and to add insult to injury not giving credit where due (not legally, but ethically.)

You do raise a good point, however, it is far too late in the game to engage that tactic. :(

Honestly, it pisses me off too, because I have to explain the difference to people (esp noobs, which is fine, I don't mind helping noobs) between these so-calleds and the real thing. THe difference is AMAZING.
"Cave ab homine unius libri" - Beware of anyone who has just one book

(2014.02.09 - 23:26:03) huxleypig: i freaking love cream
(2014.02.09 - 23:27:11) huxleypig: hey, come on, cream is nice
(2014.02.09 - 23:27:37) huxleypig: aww, i suddenly feel very sick

(23:37:46) LocksmithArmy: you should see my school girl outfit
(23:37:50) LocksmithArmy: wait... what

(13:19:50) xeo: that chick will never be satisfied by a real dick
(13:19:54) NNFAK: I would man...

(22:59:49) PhoneMan: how do you let a forum die if users keep using it? kill the servers?

May those who love us, love us; and those who don't love us, may God turn their hearts; and if He doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles so we'll know them by their limping

If someone had prince albert in a can, does that mean they'd have a killer codpiece?

(00:52:02) WolfSpring: elbow could sell a sandbox to an egyptian
<<

Aedalas

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Post Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:19 am

Re: Lockpicking Tool Templates

Aedalas wrote:
piotr wrote:
Aedalas wrote:Could it have been Southord maybe?


They even called them "Bogota Picks". Calling them "Bogota Picks" at least implicitly acknowledges Ray as the origin of the design but an explicit acknowledgement would have been more civilised.
"We extend a special thank you to those who assisted in their creation by expressing their ideas for design."

If that wasn't rai then this just seems like a dick thing to say too.
rai wrote:they speak of those, which seems plural. its not me. im not plural, so yeah I think its a dick thing to say and it looks like they blew it on copying them too
there are obvious thin spots that will cause stress to build on a small area.

bad copies with the bogota name will drag down the reputation of my stuff except among those who know them.

That must be the major manufacturer sparrows was refering to. looks like they did not make real bogotas, just stole the pick tips from me and made them in an inferior copy

jerks


Well this is an interesting turn of events. Turns out there was nothing to worry about at all, these picks are actually Pagodas, NOT Bogatas. It's all better now guys.

http://www.southord.com/Lock-Picking-To ... XS-12.html
"What if you people made giant boulders illegal because of all the innocent people who get killed by giant boulders?"
"People dont kill people with giant boulders"
"They will if you take away their assault rifles"
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piotr

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Post Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:12 am

Re: Lockpicking Tool Templates

Aedalas wrote:Well this is an interesting turn of events. Turns out there was nothing to worry about at all, these picks are actually Pagodas, NOT Bogatas. It's all better now guys.


:smile:
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GWiens2001

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Post Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:44 am

Re: Lockpicking Tool Templates

Rai's picks can be legitimately purchased from www.serepick.com If you click on Custom Tools, they have his picks handmade by Rai. The other Bogata tools they sell are licenced by Rai. That is where I bought mine.

Gordon
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rai

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Post Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:09 pm

Re: Lockpicking Tool Templates

they must have gotten a cease and decease :hammering: Letter from Matt Fiddler and fixed that name. Matt said he was going to do that, and he has filed the paperwork before this came up.

Thats not a typo, I just like it better "stop that and drop dead"
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onionz

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Post Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:26 am

Re: Lockpicking Tool Templates

I only use Vigoda picks made by Abe.
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Papa Gleb

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Post Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:53 pm

Re: Lockpicking Tool Templates

Hey Onionz, this thread is a bit old so it might not get much attention. I never heard of the picks you use, can you post pictures and give more info on them.
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norwoodgolf

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Post Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:36 pm

Re: Lockpicking Tool Templates

Here is a short documentary I found on YouTube about the development of the Pagoda style lock picks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYvt4I52wgQ
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