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The right way and the wrong way

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Riff

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Post Mon Jun 22, 2009 11:37 pm

The right way and the wrong way

Hi Guys I just wanted to put my two cents in about making bump keys. Bump keys are what got me into lockpicking. I dont use them anymore because picking is much more fun. Ive seen some of your pictures and the keys dont seems to be as efficient as they could be. Some looked very good. Just cutting a key down to it's lowest pin setting will not give you a very good bump key. I was helped out by a very nice guy from the UK. This is what he told me to do.
Take a descent key to start with (one that has not very low cuts) and get you a 1cm square file. NOW file down each grove to it's lowest cut WHILE leaving as much meat on the peaks as possible (you will inevitebly take quite a bit off of the peaks). Your key should look like this VVVVV .....NO GAPS BETWEEN CUTS. That is the "key" here. The theory here is with NO gaps (and you have made the key correctly) when you pull back one click the pins will resting right at the bottom of the valleys. This allows the pins to "ride" up the peaks and open the lock with the "slightest" of taps. It took me a few tries to key a good key made, but when made correctly you will tell a very big difference in the performance of your bump key. Just be very careful with that file and your strokes. Take your time. I'm new here, so I wanted to contribute. SO, if I have posted any info that I shouldnt have please take the post down. I hope this helps someone. Try it and let me know. :mrgreen: Oh and to get your spaceing right, this is what I did, I went on ebay and bought a set of "depth" keys, a set of all the most popular keys. They're all cut down to the lowest setting (with huge gaps between cuts), but I took them and put them against my key I was gonna cut on and drew some marks on it (from the middle of the cuts) to make sure when I was cutting it down that I was still in the right place. Riff
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the lockpickkid

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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:09 am

Re: The right way and the wrong way

That is very good info, some homemade bump keys look more like a wood saw than a bump key! Myself I have a set of factory made ones, I bet I could make some better ones using your method, but I don't use them enough for it to matter too much anyway! Thanks for the great contribution, especially on your second post!
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Riff

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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:09 am

Re: The right way and the wrong way

the lockpickkid wrote:That is very good info, some homemade bump keys look more like a wood saw than a bump key! Myself I have a set of factory made ones, I bet I could make some better ones using your method, but I don't use them enough for it to matter too much anyway! Thanks for the great contribution, especially on your second post!


My post should have been called the right way and the BETTER way... As we all know a bump key can look like crap and still be effective. As soon as I figure out how to post pictures to the forum I'll post a couple that show them up close. Riff
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GutterClown

Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:28 am

Re: The right way and the wrong way

You're concept is to simply remove the root of the cut, so:

\/ rather than \_/

correct?

You can do this to a pre-cut depth key, or code-cut bumpkey. Just take a tri-square file to the root of the cut, and deepen it.
All this will do is take the pin down to an A cut (not 10, deeper than 9 is referred to as A) and should not decrease efficiency.
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HiNtZ

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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:06 am

Re: The right way and the wrong way

I agree that bumping is such a bad way of manipulatin a lock, but it is still one of many methods and has to be counted.

I always wanted to try plastic bump keys.... or teflon ones to avoid the damage to the pins. Just another pipe dream though, I won't actually bother to make one knowing me. :D

EDIT: Just had a brainwave!

Have a nice chunky aluminum bow with two prongs that come out where the key profile is..... this will be the strengh for turning the cylinder.

Then have plastic inserts, a good hard plastic, which will be moulded to common keyways that slot into the bow. Have it like a disposable bump kit that doesn't mash the lock up.
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Riff

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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 3:57 pm

Re: The right way and the wrong way

GutterClown wrote:You're concept is to simply remove the root of the cut, so:

\/ rather than \_/

correct?

You can do this to a pre-cut depth key, or code-cut bumpkey. Just take a tri-square file to the root of the cut, and deepen it.
All this will do is take the pin down to an A cut (not 10, deeper than 9 is referred to as A) and should not decrease efficiency.


Im not sure what root of the cut is. I think you are thinking way to far into this gutterclown. My main point was instead of your key looking something like this --V--V--V--V (the center dotted lines representing the spacing). It should looks like this VVVVV . So there is NO space between peaks, this will allow the pins to "ride" up on the ramps with the slightest of taps. If done correctly the pins rest on the very bottom side of the peaks, not in the middle of them. Many of the things you can buy on the net have big gaps between cuts, which may work to some extent, But it crap compared to a bump key made correctly. The whole point of what I was trying to say was to NOT leave any space between peaks. From what I understand that if you put a key on a machine and cut everything down to 9, you will have BIG gaps between peaks. Pretty worthless as a bump key as far as I'm concerned compared to how I make them. Hence why they can sell em on ebay..."depth keys" ...instead of bump keys. The shape that you described has nothing to do with the efficiency of the bump key. Its the fact that when you use the square file (correctly) you will end up with a key with descent peaks (ramps) with hardly if any space in between them. And remember, I'm a noob in training. So please go a bit easy on me if i dont understand all of your terms. You just have to be careful with your cuts. Because if you dont go slow you will have the angle of your peaks wrong, and the key wont slide in and out of the keyway easily. I've made some where the key was quite hard to pull out of the lock. I've found that cutting in place for a bit then cutting in another, then another is the best way to avoid this. If you try and cut down one place all the way then start in the next cut, then it's really hard to keep your angle right.
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GutterClown

Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:54 pm

Re: The right way and the wrong way

Yes, so you're removing the root of the cut.
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Riff

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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:12 pm

Re: The right way and the wrong way

This is what im talking about with the spacing (or lack of). Done with a 1cm square file (seemed just using the tip of the file worked best). This is not my work. This is one of the many pics that he sent me. Riff
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the lockpickkid

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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:23 pm

Re: The right way and the wrong way

Speaking of a Tri-square file, wouldn't that be easier to impression a key with? seems to me like when you filed down with one in a key, you would have a nice root for the pin to sit on, and would eliminate some work when making a finished key.
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Riff

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Post Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: The right way and the wrong way

the lockpickkid wrote:Speaking of a Tri-square file, wouldn't that be easier to impression a key with? seems to me like when you filed down with one in a key, you would have a nice root for the pin to sit on, and would eliminate some work when making a finished key.

OK, you are talking a little over my head. What exactly do you mean by tri-square file? I cant find any descent pics of one. Is that a file with 3 sides? If that is the one you are refering to I could never get the file with 3 sides to cut a descent bump key. Believe me I tried. It seems like it would be much easier with one. But I Couldnt get the angle right on the cuts with it. (couldnt get the key back out of the lock) Maybe I just wasnt good enough at cutting. The four sided square file works perfectly for keeping the angle right on the key so it will slide in and out of the keyway. The best thing I've found to work is a four sided square file, turned on it's side.
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barbarian

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Post Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:30 am

Re: The right way and the wrong way

the lockpickkid wrote:Speaking of a Tri-square file, wouldn't that be easier to impression a key with? seems to me like when you filed down with one in a key, you would have a nice root for the pin to sit on, and would eliminate some work when making a finished key.


If you check out the toool website they show close up pictures of the keys that the masters have made in competition. All the ones I have seen are rounded cuts from a file. If there was a better way, these guys would do it. I'm guessing it gives them a better mark when impressioning, and perhaps they can wiggle the key in or out a bit to gain or loose a couple of thou.

Once they get a working key, I think they always measure it and cut a "proper" key by depth and space.
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Riff

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Post Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:05 am

Re: The right way and the wrong way

More pics. The guy told me that you may need different cuts for different locks...so he would make 4 different sizes for each type of lock. I didnt go through all that trouble...I just made one size. Cut all the way down. Just sharing info.
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Riff

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Post Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:10 am

Re: The right way and the wrong way

barbarian wrote:
the lockpickkid wrote:Speaking of a Tri-square file, wouldn't that be easier to impression a key with? seems to me like when you filed down with one in a key, you would have a nice root for the pin to sit on, and would eliminate some work when making a finished key.


If you check out the toool website they show close up pictures of the keys that the masters have made in competition. All the ones I have seen are rounded cuts from a file. If there was a better way, these guys would do it. I'm guessing it gives them a better mark when impressioning, and perhaps they can wiggle the key in or out a bit to gain or loose a couple of thou.

Once they get a working key, I think they always measure it and cut a "proper" key by depth and space.


I cant speak for anyone else. All I know is that when I started making bump keys, or had ones with rounded tops; I'd have to whack the key quite hard...and several times....once I made the Peaks in the way that is pictured with no spaces, I literally just had to "tap" the key and the lock would open.....I went from hitting hard 7 times, to tapping lightly once or twice...that's just my personal experience. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong.
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Post Wed Jun 24, 2009 3:32 am

Re: The right way and the wrong way

Gutterclown mentioned the tri-square, its a file that looks like a triangle only flat on the bottom. The other poster is right about the bumpkeys having been made with a round file, not saying that your way works or doesn't work, but in competition they do have round cuts on there bump keys. Doesn't matter much to me! I probably don't have the patience to make any anyways! But your info is interesting.
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Riff

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Post Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:59 pm

Re: The right way and the wrong way

the lockpickkid wrote:Gutterclown mentioned the tri-square, its a file that looks like a triangle only flat on the bottom. The other poster is right about the bumpkeys having been made with a round file, not saying that your way works or doesn't work, but in competition they do have round cuts on there bump keys. Doesn't matter much to me! I probably don't have the patience to make any anyways! But your info is interesting.


Yea I'm gonna have to go over to their website and check some of there stuff out. I dont think that the rounded vs pointed is the issue here. Its the spaceing. NO spacing = Ramps for pins to ride upon.
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