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Commando Lock Keyway, and Depth & Space

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MBI

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Post Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:17 am

Commando Lock Keyway, and Depth & Space

We were discussing Commando Locks in the chat room this evening, and a question came up I was hoping that Patrick or another representative of the company might be able to answer.

Is there a reason you chose the M1 keyway?
I was wondering if it was due to military contract requirements, to make it simpler for people to make key copies when they need them, or what?

Since the same keyway was used, when it comes to the bitting of the locks, is the MACS and the depth-and-space specification also the same as Master locks?
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GWiens2001

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Post Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:31 am

Re: Commando Lock Keyway, and Depth & Space

I thought the M10 was the 5 pin keyway used by Commando.

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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jeffmoss26

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Post Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:34 pm

Re: Commando Lock Keyway, and Depth & Space

The keyway is the same for M1 and M10, master designates it as 1K.
Gordon is correct, M10 is the 5 pin version.
macgng: i just thought the cat was a real tiny bear
GWiens2001: Great video! Learned a lot about what fun can be had with a forklift and a chainsaw.
pmaxey83: but i first have to submit the proper forms for a new hobby to my wife
xeo: i root for the kernel
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dicey

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Post Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:34 pm

Re: Commando Lock Keyway, and Depth & Space

I have recognised that the older keyways being used by American Lock for the US padlocks were more restricted as the newer keyways they are using at the moment. This is a step back if you ask me and therefore I highly appreciate the efort Commando is putting into this. I will upload a few pictures later becasue I do not know all the keyway numbers and I am at the moment not at home.

I also did a large review on the commando locks which covers 1-2 pages in word. I would like to put even further work into this as soon as I get an answer from Commando to my recent Mail. I would also like to post my review here but will however not do it until I have rechecked my information with commando lock.
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LocksmithArmy

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Post Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:50 pm

Re: Commando Lock Keyway, and Depth & Space

GWiens2001 wrote:I thought the M10 was the 5 pin keyway used by Commando.

Gordon


I think all of this M1 M10 business is silly... take a picture of the keyway... lets specify... read the thread title... it says KEYWAY... the keyway is the space the key fits... its the M1 keyway...

now what blank do you need to order to make a copy... that would be an M10 due to the spacing needed to account for the specific number of pins... the keyway and key blank are 2 different things...

P.S. this is not directed specifically at gordon... as I have seen this argument brought up by many members on a couple threads aswell as in the chat... its just silly... the keyway does not change just cause the plug has more pins in it... the keys blank however may need to be changed...
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jeffmoss26

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Post Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:46 pm

Re: Commando Lock Keyway, and Depth & Space

OK guys, just checked the Master technical manual.
The 1K keyway is 4 pin and the 15K keyway is 5 pin.
M1 is the 4 pin blank and M10 is the 5 pin blank.
macgng: i just thought the cat was a real tiny bear
GWiens2001: Great video! Learned a lot about what fun can be had with a forklift and a chainsaw.
pmaxey83: but i first have to submit the proper forms for a new hobby to my wife
xeo: i root for the kernel
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LocksmithArmy

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Post Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:48 pm

Re: Commando Lock Keyway, and Depth & Space

jeffmoss26 wrote:OK guys, just checked the Master technical manual.
The 1K keyway is 4 pin and the 15K keyway is 5 pin.
M1 is the 4 pin blank and M10 is the 5 pin blank.


jeffmoss ftw
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Pokey wrote:"Come and get me, loser! Spankity spankity spankity!"
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MBI

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Post Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:43 pm

Re: Commando Lock Keyway, and Depth & Space

LocksmithArmy wrote:
GWiens2001 wrote:I thought the M10 was the 5 pin keyway used by Commando.

Gordon


I think all of this M1 M10 business is silly... take a picture of the keyway... lets specify... read the thread title... it says KEYWAY... the keyway is the space the key fits... its the M1 keyway...

now what blank do you need to order to make a copy... that would be an M10 due to the spacing needed to account for the specific number of pins... the keyway and key blank are 2 different things...

P.S. this is not directed specifically at gordon... as I have seen this argument brought up by many members on a couple threads aswell as in the chat... its just silly... the keyway does not change just cause the plug has more pins in it... the keys blank however may need to be changed...

I think the differentiation is relevant.

Technically SC1 and SC4 are blank designations for the Schlage C keyway, but not all manufacturers have a different designation for the blank than they do the keyway itself, so people use the blank number interchangeably as the keyway designation, often not understanding that the blanks are even available in different lengths.

I've seen plenty of times when people mix them up, even among supposedly informed people, such as hobbyists on the lock forums. Even people who have been active on the forums for years. They ask for blanks and just assume that the number of pins in their lock is the standard, or is the only size available, and end up asking for the wrong blank. Or selling someone the wrong blank. Not as big of a deal if you end up getting a blank that's too long, but a bit of a nuisance when you get one that is too short.

It's annoying enough when dealing with blanks, but when it comes to locks it's even worse.

One time it caused me a rather large problem was when I had a customer, a friend of a friend, who was referred to me. She'd been attacked and was very paranoid and didn't want a locksmith to come to the house, just wanted to order the locks and install them herself. She had some unusual doors so she couldn't get what she needed at the home improvement store. The only reason she was allowing me to order them for her was because our mutual friend assured her I could be trusted and wouldn't keep copies of her keys. Normally I'd pass on a messed-up situation like this, but this friend called in a favor and pleaded for me to help her out.

She'd clearly studied up a bit on what measurements she needed, door handing and terminology. She had door and backset measurements, which were very odd so I asked her to to send me some picture messages by phone of the current doors, locks, and latches just to be sure. Because of the paranoia she wouldn't send me all the pics I asked for, but she sent enough that I could see that the odd measurements she had were probably correct, with backsets ranging from 2 3/8" to halfway across the door with the knob in the middle. Some odd stuff.

We chatted on the phone a bit about what she needed. She'd heard of Smartkey but didn't really understand what it was. When I described it she was thrilled since she could rekey the locks on her own. But she was very specific in making sure that they were "KW1 locks" so the keys would match some other locks she had.The finish on the locks was a non-stock item so I had to special order them from my supplier (so no returns), and had to do a lot of digging to get the odd sized door hardware that would work with the SmartKey cylinders.

I finally got all her locks in, but once again, due to paranoia she wouldn't meet with me directly. She asked me to send the locks to her via our mutual friend. The next day I met with him to collect the payment. Instead, he had the box of locks to give back to me, many of which had now been unpacked (you know how hard those can be to get back in the original boxes) and some of them had clearly been installed then uninstalled. It turns out all her current locks were Kwikset Titan. Six-pin locks, KW10 keyway. She discovered the incompatibility halfway through her installation project. Refused to pay for any of it and sent it all back with her friend.

If I'd been able to visit the job site beforehand or if she'd sent all the pics I'd originally asked for, I probably could have caught that. So granted, this is a bit of an unusual example but it illustrates the importance of the terminology. To top it all off, after sending back the locks (which by the way are dead stock, STILL sitting packed in a box somewhere in my garage), she asked me to order a pin kit for her so she could repin her current locks herself. I declined.

I think whether you choose to use the keyway designation or blank designation, we might be better served by using the proper one (if you can find it) to differentiate the number of pins in the lock, rather than just using "SC1" to refer to all Schlage C keyway locks, or M1 to refer to all 1K and 15K keyway locks.

In retrospect, I should have taken the time to look up the proper designation for the keyway in these Commando locks before asking my original question in this thread. I think most of us are guilty of it, but if we try to make it a habit of using the correct terms we'll be better off. We'll all learn more, avoid mixups in sales and trades, and just in general raise the bar in terms of how well educated we all are on this subject.
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Kezo

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Post Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:09 am

Re: Commando Lock Keyway, and Depth & Space

MBI wrote:We chatted on the phone a bit about what she needed. She'd heard of Smartkey but didn't really understand what it was. When I described it she was thrilled since she could rekey the locks on her own. But she was very specific in making sure that they were "KW1 locks" so the keys would match some other locks she had.The finish on the locks was a non-stock item so I had to special order them from my supplier (so no returns), and had to do a lot of digging to get the odd sized door hardware that would work with the SmartKey cylinders.


I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly. This paranoid lady who was attacked wanted to have all her locks replaced with a bunch of Kwikset SmartKey locks?
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MBI

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Post Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:02 am

Re: Commando Lock Keyway, and Depth & Space

Kezo wrote:I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly. This paranoid lady who was attacked wanted to have all her locks replaced with a bunch of Kwikset SmartKey locks?

Yeah, go figure. I tried to get her to upgrade to a high security lock but it just wasn't going to happen.
Originally she had the notion she could do this entire thing for under $100.
Where she got that idea, I haven't a clue.
Convincing her to go above that figure was hard enough.
I guess being miserly wins out over fear and paranoia.
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Harvey

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Post Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:16 am

Re: Commando Lock Keyway, and Depth & Space

Hey guys,

After dealing with this issue daily in the workplace, we reference ONLY keyblank number.

eg:
Profile/Keyway is irrelevant if the correct blank has been specified.
However, correct blank can be mistaken or unknown even if correct Profile/Keyway has been specified.

To curb the confusion, we just reference correct blanks and don't reference the profile/keyway of a cylinder or key.
(unless in those "ohh, it looks like an XX1 profile? but it's 6 pin, any ideas? " sort of situation)

(Code Series or Space&Depth is another issue entirely)

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