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Electrolytic Rust Removal

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Aedalas

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Post Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:34 pm

Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal

Oldfast wrote:IF I understand your question correctly... The anodes do not actually 'attract' the rust that flakes off the piece. Although the
rods I used for anodes are rusted, I think it's more so just because they've been in water all summer... they're simply rusting.
Also the rust has not affected their ability to carry the positive current into the water.
Interesting, I understand this less than I thought I did, perhaps I should actually read the articles you linked. I was thinking it worked the same way as electroplating, just that you were using the rust on your tools to plate the anode, thereby removing it from the tool rather than the water like you would with electroplating. Unfortunately I'm more experienced with the actual product than I am with the process. Time to start reading.
"What if you people made giant boulders illegal because of all the innocent people who get killed by giant boulders?"
"People dont kill people with giant boulders"
"They will if you take away their assault rifles"
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Alaphablue

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Post Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:56 pm

Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal

Old fast I am at the point were I read every post you do cause I know I will learn some thing new .
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Oldfast

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Post Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:58 am

Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal

Aedalas wrote:Interesting, I understand this less than I thought I did, perhaps I should actually read the articles you linked. I was thinking it worked the same way as electroplating, just that you were using the rust on your tools to plate the anode, thereby removing it from the tool rather than the water like you would with electroplating. Unfortunately I'm more experienced with the actual product than I am with the process. Time to start reading.

Given your background, I'd imagine you'll quickly understand after just a bit of reading.

Alaphablue wrote:Old fast I am at the point were I read every post you do cause I know I will learn some thing new .

That's wonderful to hear! One of the things I personally enjoy, is to take a particular member & look through ALL their posts.
Starting with the very first one, up until their most recent post. Obviously, this depends on how much free time I have, and
how long that memeber has been around (some people have A LOT of posts! lol). I might take one person a week, or I might
get to know someone throughout the course of a month. It's REALLY quite neat to see someone's progress, accomplishments,
discoveries, etc. One of the added perks of doin' this (besides getting to know someone) is that I come across lost treasures
that are otherwise hidden deep within the enormous pile of info on this forum.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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10ringo10

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Post Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:05 am

Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal

well said & excellent work oldfast now im going to have to try this.
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selim

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Post Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:00 am

Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal

Wicked good post oldfast,

you know how many old tools I have from the 30's 40's that have rusted in my damp dungeon

In case you didn't know I like old hardware,
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LocksmithArmy

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Post Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:53 am

Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal

Aedalas wrote:
Oldfast wrote:IF I understand your question correctly... The anodes do not actually 'attract' the rust that flakes off the piece. Although the
rods I used for anodes are rusted, I think it's more so just because they've been in water all summer... they're simply rusting.
Also the rust has not affected their ability to carry the positive current into the water.
Interesting, I understand this less than I thought I did, perhaps I should actually read the articles you linked. I was thinking it worked the same way as electroplating, just that you were using the rust on your tools to plate the anode, thereby removing it from the tool rather than the water like you would with electroplating. Unfortunately I'm more experienced with the actual product than I am with the process. Time to start reading.


He had mentioned that it does not remove the rust... it turns it back to iron... rust is iron oxide (iron and oxygen) so by removing the oxygen it becomes iron... I imagine there are lots of bubbles from this process... I love seeing this sort of thing done simply adding electricity thru anodes and or cathodes to various liquids you get such awsome results...
I personally have used this similar process to break down water (H2O into HHO) to increase gas milage... ive seen it done to plate materials... and here it is used to clean objects... just neat all the things you can do with electricity.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:01 am

Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal

Quote from Andrew Wescott's article...

"As the reaction involved in producing rust is an electrochemical one, it follows that it should be possible to somehow reverse the process using electricity, and this is indeed the case. As long as the polarity is correct with the subject matter connected as cathode, it is possible to chemically reduce some of the black rust back to metallic iron with a good bond to the original metal. During this process, much of the red rust is converted to Fe3O4 and becomes detached from the surface, aiding its removal when the conversion is complete. The iron anode, or positive electrode, should be considered to be expendable and can be expected to rust as a result primarily of the presence of molecular oxygen combining with the iron."

So yeah, some of the rust is indeed converted back to iron. And the accumulation I see in the bottom of my electro-monster is red rust. My anodes are rusted to some extent but the connections are still good (which is the main concern). I agree LSA, electricity and the things that can be done with it is a thing of beauty. Some of the things you & Aedalas have mentioned interest me. Half of which I don't understand... but I'd like to pursue some of these other applications someday. There's just never enought time though! LOL. Sometimes I wonder if sleep is really worth spending nearly 1/2 my life on. haha!
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Aedalas

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Post Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:56 pm

Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal

I still need to read your articles, but FE3O4 is actually black iron oxide (red I think is FE2O3). After oxidization I'm not sure it can be fully reverted to iron. You're basically changing red iron oxide into black iron oxide which has a much weaker bond to the remaining metal. I do need to look into this more, I wonder how the pH of the water would affect the process. What are you using for a solution? I'd imagine it would have to be an electrolyte of some sort to carry current and I'd be real curious to see what happens when the process is done using different pH's of solution. Or different chemicals to achieve conductivity, say salt vs sodium hydroxide vs sodium carbonate vs ammonium hydroxide. Or even an acidic solution. I'm not sure I'd want to be around for a few of those though as you may get some interesting gasses. And back to electroplating I wonder if it would be possible to achieve this at the same time by adding copper flake (or some other material) to the solution. I wouldn't try anything like that with something important like your grandfathers tools though, I'm sure whoever figured this out tried all this and published the best method. I'm just really curious as to what else could happen is all. Or maybe I should quit speculating and get to reading.
"What if you people made giant boulders illegal because of all the innocent people who get killed by giant boulders?"
"People dont kill people with giant boulders"
"They will if you take away their assault rifles"
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:35 pm

Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal

lol... I have sparked a raging waterfall of ideas & possibilities up in that brain of yours, eh?

In regards to the solution; one author used soda crystals. The other, washing soda. He used 5 tablespoons in his 5 gallon bucket (which is not truly 5 gallons... not really sure how we've all come to call them that). For reasons I'm still unsure of, baking soda was not reccommended... but that's what I used lol. Also, I only placed 1 heaping tablespoon of it in my "5 gallon" bucket. As you read you'll find there's really a plethora of different chemicals that could be used, probably with varying results.
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Aedalas

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Post Wed Sep 12, 2012 10:36 pm

Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal

Finally got around to reading up on it, I really should have done that first. I still can't figure out whether or not variables in the solution matter but most of my other questions were answered. The process will work with any material that makes the water conductive, hell even table salt would work. Obviously some things are better than others and may speed up the process, but as long as the current flows it should work. What I'm still wondering though is if the presence of other chemicals has any other effect. Pure water, pure oxygen and pure iron will not rust in the way we normally see it, there are other reactions happening in real world situations that cause oxidation (also things like sea-salt creating a green rust). Pure water, oxygen and iron are all but impossible outside of a lab setting though. Where I'm getting vapor locked is that there should be ways to accelerate the reaction just like salt, for instance, will accelerate the actual rusting. Everything I've read though an alkali solution has been used, I'd still be really curious to see how an acidic solution worked.

Oldfast wrote:lol... I have sparked a raging waterfall of ideas & possibilities up in that brain of yours, eh?


I wish. . . Waterfalls tend to go in one direction, my problem has always been I'm all over the damn place. I would be fine with the ADD if I could just add the H to my symptoms. Speaking of, time to go read up on waterfalls.

Also, why are all these people going through so much trouble to wire up anodes? Has nobody tried using a metal bucket and just wiring that? Seems like it would be a LOT more effective at surrounding the object with anodes and just stupidly easy to do.
"What if you people made giant boulders illegal because of all the innocent people who get killed by giant boulders?"
"People dont kill people with giant boulders"
"They will if you take away their assault rifles"
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:17 pm

Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal

Aedalas wrote:. . . Also, why are all these people going through so much trouble to wire up anodes? Has nobody tried using a metal bucket and just wiring that? Seems like it would be a LOT more effective at surrounding the object with anodes and just stupidly easy to do . . .


hmmm. Good question! Seems feasible to me... but again, I really don't know a great deal about all this.
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Aedalas

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Post Wed Sep 12, 2012 11:40 pm

Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal

Oldfast wrote:
Aedalas wrote:. . . Also, why are all these people going through so much trouble to wire up anodes? Has nobody tried using a metal bucket and just wiring that? Seems like it would be a LOT more effective at surrounding the object with anodes and just stupidly easy to do . . .


hmmm. Good question! Seems feasible to me... but again, I really don't know a great deal about all this.

Actually I realized why but didn't get a chance to edit it before you replied. Most steel buckets are galvanized which is apparently a no-no. Finding a container made out of the right steel would be pretty hard I think.
"What if you people made giant boulders illegal because of all the innocent people who get killed by giant boulders?"
"People dont kill people with giant boulders"
"They will if you take away their assault rifles"
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Riyame

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Post Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:47 pm

Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal

Damn man, that is really cool! Those are some very impressive results.
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Oldfast

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Post Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:44 am

Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal

Some very tedious work at times. But overall I very much so enjoyed it... and VERY gratifying!

And I know I already mentioned it, but... damn it's good to have ya back around Eric!!
Seems like it's been much much longer than just a couple of weeks. lol
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piotr

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Post Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:06 am

Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal

Great post and I think restoring and using your late grand-father's tools is a great way to honour his memory.
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