Interesting, short article on Victorian lock picking

[Neilau]

Came across this short article from an history magazine.

I found the bit about Hobbs using his teeth to assess the pressure interesting.

https://boingboing.net/2016/06/15/the-forgotten-blockbuster-lock.html

There is a link to the full article. You have to join though.

[huxleypig]

Cool find Neilau!

Hobbs was certainly ahead of his time...but let's not forget that not only did several locks defeat him but his defeat of the Bramah took 16 days! Nowadays there are several tools that will defeat the Bramah in minutes, not days!! His attacks on the Chubb 'detector' lock were impractical in the field too if I remember correctly.

To be fair to the man though, he does have the 2-in-1 pick named after him; "The Hobbs pick". In my opinion it is not especially revolutionary in design or innovation but he did it first!

[Patrick Star]

Where can I find some detailed information about the Bramah lock? From what little I've seen it seems like some sort of wafer lock?

Regardless 50 hours spread over 16 days for mastering an entirely new mechanism and manufacturing tools for it isn't shabby... And he did pick a lot of locks mounted in the door. I think his "formal attack verification" (with witnesses etc) of the Chubb detector defeat was done like that as well.

[ratlock]

You can still find modern ones one ebay. I bought one for a look. Imagine the principle is kinda like a tubular lock. But instead of pins, its metal strips, or sliders that move back into a circular sheerline.With about 10 times the travel of a normal tubular lock.
On the lock I have there are 7 of them, and one is directly below the tension tab on the tubular key. The spring that pushes against the sliders is as tough as an old boot. And although I havent picked it, I belive the sliders have false gates too. All this in a tiny keyway, which I believe was another Brabah feature.
You have to hold your hat off to Mr Bramah.

[Patrick Star]

Found a scan of this book from the late 1800s that goes into some detail on Mr Hobb's adventures: A Treatise on Fire and Thief-proof Depositories.
https://www.sendspace.com/file/i97qgj

[huxleypig]

Found a scan of this book from the late 1800s that goes into some detail on Mr Hobb's adventures: A Treatise on Fire and Thief-proof Depositories.
https://www.sendspace.com/file/i97qgj

I'd love to read that Patrick but I am getting nothing from the link.

[Patrick Star]

Works for me (tm).
It's available on the very-annoying Google Books as well: https://books.google.com.au/books?id=Za ... ks&f=false

[MBI]

Found a scan of this book from the late 1800s that goes into some detail on Mr Hobb's adventures: A Treatise on Fire and Thief-proof Depositories.
https://www.sendspace.com/file/i97qgj

The link and download worked for me.

Thanks for posting it. I'm looking forward to sitting down and reading it.

[Patrick Star]

For those of you who go all "tl;dr" by the book but are somehow interested in the non-wildgrade-method Hobbs used on the Bramah lock, apparently he used a gizmo that let him keep it tensioned for the entire time. Also, there was some damage to the wafers/sliders, though it seems a bit unsure who caused it (it was 60 years old at that point, after all).

[huxleypig]

I have the .pdf now, thanks. It is a great book. It makes it even more interesting because he was from Wolverhampton, an area that I still live in and my family's roots go back through the lock making factories of the Black Country.

I am only partly through the book but so far I have particularly enjoyed the sourness with which he speaks of Mr Milner and the disparaging remarks he makes in relation to many of Milner's patents!

Some of the warded stuff is fascinating too. I imagine that a modern day 5 lever lock, with added crazy warding underneath the cuts (not the little steps we have nowadays) would be most secure.

What is the modern-day theory in relation to fire safes? Price goes to great lengths to outline the composition of 'sacrificial' materials within the linings of safes; in particular steam-releasing agents which are funneled out of the safe lining via vents. I am guessing the theory here is that is there is something to absorb the energy of a fire then that energy will not harm the contents of the safe? Was/is this an actually effective measure? Or is it long outdated?

[Jaakko Fagerlund]

What is the modern-day theory in relation to fire safes? Price goes to great lengths to outline the composition of 'sacrificial' materials within the linings of safes; in particular steam-releasing agents which are funneled out of the safe lining via vents. I am guessing the theory here is that is there is something to absorb the energy of a fire then that energy will not harm the contents of the safe? Was/is this an actually effective measure? Or is it long outdated?

Gypsum, clay and other materials are still used. Basically anything that contains water and releases it in heat as steam. There is no better heat barrier than that, as water takes huge amounts of energy to heat up and convert to steam.

[huxleypig]

What is the modern-day theory in relation to fire safes? Price goes to great lengths to outline the composition of 'sacrificial' materials within the linings of safes; in particular steam-releasing agents which are funneled out of the safe lining via vents. I am guessing the theory here is that is there is something to absorb the energy of a fire then that energy will not harm the contents of the safe? Was/is this an actually effective measure? Or is it long outdated?

Gypsum, clay and other materials are still used. Basically anything that contains water and releases it in heat as steam. There is no better heat barrier than that, as water takes huge amounts of energy to heat up and convert to steam.

Wow, cool, so it is still used today? I was wondering if its efficacy was limited to short duration fires - just how much energy can be absorbed before all the water has been evaporated?

[Neilau]

Big Thanks to Patrick Star.

What started as a short article ended up with a link to a fantastic 1000 page book.

Thanks for the link. I've just started it. Love it ....... Brilliant!!!

[huxleypig]

There are some wonderful examples of bonkers locks! Page 415, Machin's Lock; this was 1827 and it had a key that extended upwards as it was turned in the lock! With a very fine pipe-end.

About the Chubb detector - Price mentions that the strength of the detector spring could give a skilled lockpicker an indication of when you were close to overlifting the levers. I am guessing that this was very difficult in practise to achieve though. Could a reverse pin and cam work? So start everything at the lowest cut and work upwards?

The other thing about the detector - what if you tripped the detector on purpose and then proceeded to pick the levers in the detector-freeing direction. Would the levers now be limited in travel so as to only go high enough to the real gate now the spring has been tripped? Would the lock now be easier to pick in the detector-bolt-freeing direction and thus give you the correct bitting? Price does mention something about this I think but it is a bit unclear. Is this how Hobbs did it?

[10ringo10]

I Skipped that part and went to pages 578 to 581 - Hobbs picking the bramah not only did he pick it once - but another 3 times its explained regarding the spiral spring being very strong 30- 40 pounds of pressure to depress it was required
so the 18 sliders could be manipulated - looks like it was set up using C- clamps to the board the lock was fixed to help depress spring something was going on - for sure

Hobbs must have known the lock was in fact RIGGED with a spring 6 times stronger than normal 4 to 5 pounds
30 to 40 pounds he needed a rig - and made one and screwed it in position its written ...


very interesting .... great find