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How do you find security pin after getting a false set?

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umbridge69

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Post Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:26 am

How do you find security pin after getting a false set?

How do you find security pin after getting a false set? I seem to remember hearing that I should get pushback on the tension wrench when I push the pick up on a security pin after getting a false set, but I don't. So I try to put less pressure on the tension wrench but still don't feel feedback and eventually lose my false set. Any suggestions are appropriated. This is my first security pin padlock - a Brinks 40mm - since I can open a master 03 with regularity now (yay me!).

Side question - why can I spp to a false set on the Brinks but not be able to spp the master 03? Is it a difference of cylinder quality or am I just not quite there yet or a little of both? Thanks for reading and any tips/suggestions made .
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Josh

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Post Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:49 am

Re: How do you find security pin after getting a false set?

umbridge69 wrote:How do you find security pin after getting a false set? I seem to remember hearing that I should get pushback on the tension wrench when I push the pick up on a security pin after getting a false set, but I don't. So I try to put less pressure on the tension wrench but still don't feel feedback and eventually lose my false set.

keep the tension the same... just use the hook to press on each pin...

umbridge69 wrote:Side question - why can I spp to a false set on the Brinks but not be able to spp the master 03? Is it a difference of cylinder quality or am I just not quite there yet or a little of both?
well the master 03 is just a standard cylinder...not false set... nothing to add feel... youre probably just oversetting... try increasing tension a LITTLE more
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umbridge69

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Post Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:18 am

Re: How do you find security pin after getting a false set?

Will keep trying, Josh. Thanks!
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ToolyMcgee

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Post Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:20 am

Re: How do you find security pin after getting a false set?

The brinks 40 mm as far as I have experienced only has spool pins other than maybe 1 standard pin stack. I'm not sure if there are serrated key pins... So it should be forcing the cylinder backward with a little upward pick pressure once you get a spool pin to false set. It can be different to get used to especially since you say you are having trouble with SPP on the master #3. Tension is most likely the barrier you have to overcome. The reason a spring "loaded" tensioner is impractical is because there is no proper tension for picking. Variable tension is the right way. When starting out picking spools I used a medium tension to bring the pins to false set, then light tension to see if they would force the plug to rotate against the tensioner when I put upward pick pressure on them. If you reset pins in the process of setting a spool pin it is normal. Sometimes you have to pick 3 pins of a lock to set a spool and let them all drop back, then go through and do it again. Alot of this is where the mechanical slack is in the lock if you can find a binding order that will let you pick them without going through the motions. If you have a standard pin stack to the shearline and the spools to the false set pushing up on the standard stack at all might reset the whole thing. You can't have the spools at full false set with the standard pin stack not picked to the shearline.

If you still have troubles I have had success using the back of hook to lift all the pins to the top of the keyway then applying tension. Now turn your pick rightside up and slowly release tension. Let them fall and hit the pick. Take not of the order. Once they have all fallen repeat this and this time catch the pins in the order they drop with the tip of your pick and lower the key pins the the shearline under controlled light tension trying not to let the others fall. Most times it is inevitable. The main goal is to try and get a feel for where the pins catch and what order they bind in. Sometimes you can get a problem pin to stay above the shearline with this kind of "reverse" picking.

Side question: Again it is probably just an issue of proper tension. Too much tension on the masters can make a shearline undetectable in a problem lock, but with the proper medium tension they should ring like a bell when set. It could also be the key biting, or it could be damage to the lock. I'm sticking with the tension theory however as I have successfully picked many a busted and gummed up mudpie master with some patience. If it is one of those 3up's or removable core master's it could be an issue of cylinder machining. If the key doesn't open it smoothly there may be an issue with the lock. Is it a standard NO3 or a new sheet steel covered no3. Old laminated master's are standard pin, but newer "fake" laminated steel master's have a bump stop security pin in them.

Anyway hope something in there is helpful.

-ToolyMcgee
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Wozzlock

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Post Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:06 am

Re: How do you find security pin after getting a false set?

I'm not ignoring this thread, I just don't have a full 110% understanding of what exactly is happening with a false set! :oops: ...and have been to embarrassed to ask! But I use em and get there in the end... such an amateur!

Hope you get the answers you want!
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umbridge69

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Post Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:12 am

Re: How do you find security pin after getting a false set?

Thanks for a *really* informative post, ToolyMcGee! I'll try your suggestions on the Brinks. And yes the master 03 is a new one but I wonder if it is messed up (using the key it sticks a little right out of the box) The biting on the master is pretty radical too so I'll keep trying to spp and vary tension.

Thanks again for the great post! (woohoo)
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Josh

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Post Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: How do you find security pin after getting a false set?

Wozzlock wrote:I'm not ignoring this thread, I just don't have a full 110% understanding of what exactly is happening with a false set! :oops: ...and have been to embarrassed to ask! But I use em and get there in the end... such an amateur!

Hope you get the answers you want!

seriously :?:
well what it is is that the driver pin(top pin) is getting caught at the sheerline... when it happens the plug rotates a little and it make you feel like you have set the pin when you really havent... hence the term false set...
i will try and find a diagram...
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awol70

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Post Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:09 pm

Re: How do you find security pin after getting a false set?

Josh wrote:
Wozzlock wrote:I'm not ignoring this thread, I just don't have a full 110% understanding of what exactly is happening with a false set! :oops: ...and have been to embarrassed to ask! But I use em and get there in the end... such an amateur!

Hope you get the answers you want!

seriously :?:
well what it is is that the driver pin(top pin) is getting caught at the sheerline... when it happens the plug rotates a little and it make you feel like you have set the pin when you really havent... hence the term false set...
i will try and find a diagram...

Josh..can you try and find that wicked little animation clip,or a link. "lockpicking for a new millennium" i believe the clip is taken from.
you know the one...?
" I Love the smell of napalm in the morning!....."

Image
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Wozzlock

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Location: Liverpool UK

Post Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: How do you find security pin after getting a false set?

What I mean is, I know what a false set is... exactly as you described. It's just that when I get one, I initially expected all the other pins not to be set, but most of the time it leaves only one or two hard to push pins.

So I push those pins and boom it opens! So I know what one is and I use it to my advantage but it's not how I expected it to be, thereby not understanding 110%

Hope that made sense?

Like in this vid (1st Master)... a little jiggle and it's set, one front pin and it's open? Cool, but I don't really know what's going on with the other pins?

I do try and sound like I know what I'm doing though! :oops:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=145lI63REco[/youtube]
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Josh

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Location: Stockton, CA

Post Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:03 pm

Re: How do you find security pin after getting a false set?

awol70 wrote:
Josh wrote:
Wozzlock wrote:I'm not ignoring this thread, I just don't have a full 110% understanding of what exactly is happening with a false set! :oops: ...and have been to embarrassed to ask! But I use em and get there in the end... such an amateur!

Hope you get the answers you want!

seriously :?:
well what it is is that the driver pin(top pin) is getting caught at the sheerline... when it happens the plug rotates a little and it make you feel like you have set the pin when you really havent... hence the term false set...
i will try and find a diagram...

Josh..can you try and find that wicked little animation clip,or a link. "lockpicking for a new millennium" i believe the clip is taken from.
you know the one...?
well the site that had the animation is down =[
but here is one image everyone should be familiar with.lol
untitled2.JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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umbridge69

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Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:08 pm

Location: USA

Post Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:53 pm

Re: How do you find security pin after getting a false set?

Well, yay me some more!! Just sat down to play with the Brinks after reading over these posts again, and succeeded in opening it 4 times spp! I'll just add this to my pile of conquered locks (now a mind-numbing pile of 3 locks 8-) ) I'll have to keep working on getting this master 03 opened spp but at least I know that I'm doing things right now that I got my first security pin padlock opened spp .

Thanks again for all of the great tips and suggestions!
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Josh

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Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 12:24 pm

Location: Stockton, CA

Post Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:41 pm

Re: How do you find security pin after getting a false set?

congrats

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