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We mustn't fail the MossMan!

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PhoneMan

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I've gone and said something stupid, haven't I?
I've gone and said something stupid, haven't I?

Posts: 371

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Location: Missouri

Post Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:02 pm

Re: We mustn't fail the MossMan!

Here's some pics of my 600, maybe it'll help you see what's going on inside:
Inside the lock with core removed:
Image

The core:
Image
The little pin is spring loaded, when you push it in, the core should pull out. (Of course, you need it unlocked to access the pin)
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jeffmoss26

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Sargent Mossberg
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Location: Cleveland, OH

Post Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:06 am

Re: We mustn't fail the MossMan!

Thanks for all the advice, and phoneman for the picture!
We shall soldier on!
femurat: They're called restricted for a reason...
Innerpicked: The more keys you carry, the more important you look
GWiens2001: Great video! Learned a lot about what fun can be had with a forklift and a chainsaw.
pmaxey83: but i first have to submit the proper forms for a new hobby to my wife
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Farmerfreak

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Posts: 462

Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:00 am

Location: SLC, Utah

Post Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:20 am

Re: We mustn't fail the MossMan!

If you are in a false set, more likely than not it will be one or both of those two really deep cuts on the tip. You could try copying the first half of the key and then re-impressioning the tip two cuts again.

Also if you have a light and a straight pick that you can look into the lock with. Shallow cuts can be measured without picking the lock because you can see over the tops of them. Looking into the lock can also help determine that it is only a 5 pin lock and not a 6 pin one.
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Joe Momma

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Familiar Face

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Location: near the Rubicon trail - U.S.A.

Post Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:31 am

Re: We mustn't fail the MossMan!

I have an American "SET U.S." Padlock (Junkunc Bros. stamped key) that the cylinder/actuator by design only turns to 1 o'clock and the shackle opens, maybe the shackle is stuck on that lock and the cylinder/actuator is one of those?
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Riyame

Keeper of the Bests / Supreme Overlord of Small Format Interchangeable Picking Nightmares

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Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:16 pm

Location: Canada

Post Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:19 am

Re: We mustn't fail the MossMan!

Joe Momma wrote:I have an American "SET U.S." Padlock (Junkunc Bros. stamped key) that the cylinder/actuator by design only turns to 1 o'clock and the shackle opens, maybe the shackle is stuck on that lock and the cylinder/actuator is one of those?


Those are actually quite a bit different. Those cylinders should have a direct attachment to the locking bar which locks the shackle. That is why they dont need to be rotated much. The 600 series is a ball locking system like the normal american locks.

It it should be bypassable with the American tool from the looks of it. But they have really strong springs so it might just break the tool :/
PhoneMan: I always knew I'd say something stupid and it would be someone's sig
macgng: i am an equal opportunity pervert
macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
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jruther2

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Captain Contributor / Pick Synthesis Fabrication Process Execution Specialist / Global Moderator
Captain Contributor / Pick Synthesis Fabrication Process Execution Specialist / Global Moderator

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Location: United States

Post Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:47 pm

Re: We mustn't fail the MossMan!

I believe it IS a crazy false set. I went looking through my stuff yesterday and found a core that I thought would work for Jeff but the one I found uses a screw at the back for retention instead of the spring loaded pin at the top. Don't know where this core came from and don't even remember picking it the first time. But, there it was laying in a drawer with the plug turned.

I decided to lock it back and see if I could replicate your unfortunate position. Look below...
crazy_1_o_clock.jpg

Looks like the thing you're dealing with. Took me a couple of resets and attempts but I managed to get it picked again.
picked.jpg

I had to find (took a couple of guesses) the pin that was not truly set and lift on it as I counter rotated the plug with my pick (the pick is lifting a pin and ccw rotating at the same time) while maintaining very slight cw tension with my tw in hopes of dropping as few pins as possible. Eventually I found a pin that actually set from this attack as opposed to oversetting and dropping everything else. Even after I found that pin it took me a couple of tries but now I knew how far up that pin needed to go and ultimately that was the last bit of info I needed to get it picked.

Hope that is your situation and I hope you can get it picked now.
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"An honest man is one who knows that he can't consume more than he has produced."
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NNFAK

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Location: Houston

Post Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:10 pm

Re: We mustn't fail the MossMan!

jruther2 wrote:I believe it IS a crazy false set.


After seeing this thread I went to pick my American 200... I got the same insane false set. Maybe this is normal for this type of core?
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xeo

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Post Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:13 pm

Re: We mustn't fail the MossMan!

NNFAK wrote:
jruther2 wrote:I believe it IS a crazy false set.


After seeing this thread I went to pick my American 200... I got the same insane false set. Maybe this is normal for this type of core?


Not sure why I didn't think of this. But yeah, it is common. The older American Locks do what I call a "deadlock" false set. The pins give zero counter-rotation and you need to either slowly work the plug backwards until something lifts... or anticipate the false set while picking and try to pick around it.
Image
The code is hidden in the tumblers. One position opens the lock, another position opens one of these doors...
http://www.youtube.com/xeotech1

(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻

░░░░░░░░░░░░░Image
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:20 am

Re: We mustn't fail the MossMan!

I worked on this thing to no avail (yet) until I went to bed last night. BUT, I think we're on the right track.
I agree with you guys... I'm really thinking it is indeed a false set. After exhausting all other possibilities
anyway, what other choices do I really have left other than to assume it's is?! lol

While pickin' on it last night, it seems my focus is always drawn to pin 4. Just as FF said, and I agree....
the false set probably deals with pin 4 or 5... or both. Ater no joy pickin'... I decided to have another
go with a key and had some interesting things occur. Basically, the plug dropped into this "false set"
even though the depths on 4 & 5 were higher than my initial key that I pictured! Thought I was on my
way to an opening but instead... it STAYED in this false set as I VERY SLOWLY brought these two bittings
down.... all the way to their maximum depth lol. So no opening, but this just screams false set to me.

I'm really starting to like this grumpy old American that refuses to yield;
Just when I was starting to think I was the master of Americans.... one comes along to put me in my place! LOL

You guys have renewed my confidence that I'm on the right track. And sometimes that's worth more than knowledge.
Thanks so much for all your thoughts so far guys. Thanks Mathias & J for diggin' out your locks and pickin' on em' a bit
to see what you come up with. And thanks PhoneMan for taking & postin' some pics!
(not always a quick & easy task... at least for me).

So Jeff, I think there's still reason for hope lol. I'll give it my best. If worse comes to worse and I'm
forced to gracefully bow out of this battle.... I KNOW there's people here who CAN get it open.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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jeffmoss26

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Sargent Mossberg
Sargent Mossberg

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Location: Cleveland, OH

Post Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:02 pm

Re: We mustn't fail the MossMan!

I am still optimistic :)
femurat: They're called restricted for a reason...
Innerpicked: The more keys you carry, the more important you look
GWiens2001: Great video! Learned a lot about what fun can be had with a forklift and a chainsaw.
pmaxey83: but i first have to submit the proper forms for a new hobby to my wife
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Farmerfreak

Active Member

Posts: 462

Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:00 am

Location: SLC, Utah

Post Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:22 pm

Re: We mustn't fail the MossMan!

Oldfast wrote: Basically, the plug dropped into this "false set"
even though the depths on 4 & 5 were higher than my initial key that I pictured! Thought I was on my
way to an opening but instead... it STAYED in this false set as I VERY SLOWLY brought these two bittings
down.... all the way to their maximum depth lol. So no opening, but this just screams false set to me.
This!!! American does not use spooled key pins. So if at any time you are in a false set, any marks you are getting is because you are already too deep in that position.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4199

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:57 pm

Re: We mustn't fail the MossMan!

man-o-man-o-man. What a drawn out battle (seemed long to me anyway!).
Thanks so much for stickin' around for it guys... lol. But we're not done yet.

Long story short. The lock is open. It was NOT a false set...
rather, something in a pin chamber obstructing full rotation.
I'm thinking collapsed spring along with a mangled masterpin.

Farmer, going by what you said earlier, I recreated my first 3 cuts on my previous key and impressioned again...
focusing on pins 4 & 5. I did that twice this morning with no success. Going by the markings I received towards the
end of those two attempts, I decided it was pin 3 that I had cut too deep from the very beginning!
So, I started
once more from square one. But here's the kicker: Not even 1/2 way into this attempt, I grabbed a key from my
"failed" pile (guess I just wanted to see that "false set" again)... and the damn thing opened. *shakes head*

Turns out I had made TWO working keys already (sort of). Both of em' setting in my pile of failed attempts.
They only work when the lock is up-side-down. I've no excuse for not trying this earlier when picking or
working the key. I know better. A collapsed spring, yes... but a spring would not have held up to the torque
I was placing on this thing. You can't remove the plug with these older cores, but you can take out one of
the retaining pins so the plug can be turned to dump the keypins. Just as Gordon shows it here. This one
stops just shy of allowing me to actually dump the pins.

Image

You can see the keypin in chamber 3 sets low of the shear. What do you guys think? I'm thinking that a
masterpin/wafer belongs atop it. Instead, it's still up in the chamber along with a collapsed spring.
To verify it, I suppose I'd have to continue deepening the cut until it allows it to drop.
Honestly, I dunno if it's really worth any more effort & time at this point.

So Jeff, the good news is - the son-of-bitch is open. The bad news is... well.... yeah.
Think it over n' let me know what (if anything) ya want to do with this one for now.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Riyame

Keeper of the Bests / Supreme Overlord of Small Format Interchangeable Picking Nightmares

Posts: 2024

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:16 pm

Location: Canada

Post Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:07 am

Re: We mustn't fail the MossMan!

If you cant pull out that 2nd pin you could always drill it out if you are really careful.
PhoneMan: I always knew I'd say something stupid and it would be someone's sig
macgng: i am an equal opportunity pervert
macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
<<

jeffmoss26

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Sargent Mossberg
Sargent Mossberg

Posts: 2076

Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:21 am

Location: Cleveland, OH

Post Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:19 am

Re: We mustn't fail the MossMan!

YAY!!!
Glad you got it open. Send it back with the cylinder out and open, and I will see about getting it apart/rekeyed...
YOU ROCK
femurat: They're called restricted for a reason...
Innerpicked: The more keys you carry, the more important you look
GWiens2001: Great video! Learned a lot about what fun can be had with a forklift and a chainsaw.
pmaxey83: but i first have to submit the proper forms for a new hobby to my wife
<<

Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4199

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:29 pm

Re: We mustn't fail the MossMan!

On the upside, we ended up with a thread FILLED with some great trouble-shooting ideas.
Collectively, I think we covered alot of ground here for anyone having problems with a lock!

I also ended up with several (now useless) blanks that'll serve as good canidates for some of my
'key-aging experiments'...lol. Btw Jeff, I never used the two you sent with it. I'll send em back
to you along with one working key.... well, one upside-down working key anyway. lol

and, I learned something new.......
Farmerfreak wrote:...American does not use spooled key pins. So if at any time you are in a false set, any marks you are getting is because you are already too deep in that position.
This makes complete sense and is glaringly obvious! But as silly as it sounds, I guess I never really realized this or thought it through.
Guess I thought you could possibly hit a false set while impressioning and work your way out of it lol... COMPLETE blunder on my part.

Once I really thought it through & visualized it, it makes sense. All stacks start at the max height with a blank.
Unless there's spooled keypins, you should NEVER hit a false on your way to a working key. If the mid-section
of a spool does reach the shear (giving you a false set), you know without a doubt that you've filed too deep.

....one of those "oh, duh!" moments followed by a lightbulb in the brain LOL. Thanks for that FarmerFreak.... and everyone.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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