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Hook picks v's Half diamond

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bouncer965

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Post Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:03 pm

Hook picks v's Half diamond

Ive been playing around with the half diamond from the Majestic set for the last couple of days on some of my locks. Now im new to picking and when i started i was going for the hook picks to SPP all my locks. Reason being that i couldnt really feel what was going on with the half diamond.

I only actually used the half diamond on a Yale padlock and that was the only success i had with it. But now im finding it a handy little pick especially when the bitting on the keys are quite high. I can slip the half diamond along the warding and just being a little less hasty with it than with a pick am actually getting good results on my locks. Ive had a Chubb padlock and havent been able to pick it with a hook pick but got great results with the half diamond. Also had good results on my American 1100.

So for any newbies who are struggling a bit just try changing the picks your using and going for a different approach. i think you may be surprised at the result.
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ripmurph

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Post Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:32 am

Re: Hook picks v's Half diamond

While I can relate to notion of using the "best" pick for the job, I feel that hook picking is the true tool for picking. I understand and agree that certain picks of other designs can be more efficient, but to learn the feel of the pins with a hook is the true measure of one's picking skills. It may take longer and be quite frustrating, but for me it is the true measure of skill. Let me be clear, I'm not hating on anyone's opinion; I'm just putting in my two cents worth. Whatever it's worth
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elbowmacaroni

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Post Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:31 am

Re: Hook picks v's Half diamond

ripmurph wrote:While I can relate to notion of using the "best" pick for the job, I feel that hook picking is the true tool for picking. I understand and agree that certain picks of other designs can be more efficient, but to learn the feel of the pins with a hook is the true measure of one's picking skills. It may take longer and be quite frustrating, but for me it is the true measure of skill. Let me be clear, I'm not hating on anyone's opinion; I'm just putting in my two cents worth. Whatever it's worth


While I share your preference for the hook, I have to strongly disagree with your assessment of skill based upon pick used. It is a matter of personal preference, Let's say, take for example an offset half diamond, it lies somewhere between a short hook and a half diamond and is a very useful pick for getting around Low-Hi-Low-Hi type situations. Also, a half diamond isn't necessarily used for raking which is what you seem to possibly be implying there with the "efficient" comment, they are very commonly used as you would a hook, they just happen to be shaped different. They are also useful in making a quick first pass assessment of a lock if you're doing a blind pick.

Basically, what I'm saying the true measure of skill is how well one uses their tools, whichever they may be.
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bouncer965

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Post Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:45 pm

Re: Hook picks v's Half diamond

ripmurph wrote:While I can relate to notion of using the "best" pick for the job, I feel that hook picking is the true tool for picking. I understand and agree that certain picks of other designs can be more efficient, but to learn the feel of the pins with a hook is the true measure of one's picking skills. It may take longer and be quite frustrating, but for me it is the true measure of skill. Let me be clear, I'm not hating on anyone's opinion; I'm just putting in my two cents worth. Whatever it's worth


I do sort of agree with what your saying but on the other hand i dont. I dont use my half diamond in a raking way, i actually use it to spp the lock. Im not a fan of raking even though i do practise with the bogota rake and do succeed, but this is so i can use a variety of techniques to beat the lock. Now my personal preference is for the hook picks reasons being 1. I tend to get more feedback from the pick 2. Its what i felt comfortable with when i started 1 month ago 3. I'd never tried with the half diamond properly.

So i agree with what you say about the true measure of picking skills. But i beleive there is more measure of true picking skills by beating the lock with different methods ie: being able to use single pick, bogota rake, half diamond, offset diamond all on the same lock, that to me seems a lot more skillful than just going for the hook picks all the time. Im enjoying the picking hobby but if i can get profficient in using all the picks that i have available to me then in my eyes thats better odds on beating the lock.
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ripmurph

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Post Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: Hook picks v's Half diamond

I appreciate your guy's viewpoints and they make sense to me. And, in the long run, what it comes down to is whatever or however it takes to get the lock picked. Like I said, for me, I'm not satisfied with a lock I have picked until I have hook picked it. Initially, I use whatever tool or method to get it open, but then I keep at it until I am to spp it with a hook. It may not make a lot of sense or be logical. I label it as a kind of obsessive compulsive lock picking disorder. And just as OCD is with everything - you do something a certain way for no rational reason or purpose.
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bouncer965

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Post Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:29 pm

Re: Hook picks v's Half diamond

ripmurph wrote:I appreciate your guy's viewpoints and they make sense to me. And, in the long run, what it comes down to is whatever or however it takes to get the lock picked. Like I said, for me, I'm not satisfied with a lock I have picked until I have hook picked it. Initially, I use whatever tool or method to get it open, but then I keep at it until I am to spp it with a hook. It may not make a lot of sense or be logical. I label it as a kind of obsessive compulsive lock picking disorder. And just as OCD is with everything - you do something a certain way for no rational reason or purpose.


Agreed, as soon as i get a new lock to play with i always go for the hook pick first. Its just when i did a Yale Y90S padlock i couldnt get it with the hook pick so tried the half diamond (spp not raking) and popped it in 10 minutes. Now i can do it with both the half diamond and the hook picks.
Im new to it, but for other new guys i thought it might help them too if they cant get a lock open with one form of pick to change it for another, to get the same result. For me now i aim to try and do all my locks with the various picks .....just to satisfy my lock picking disorder :D :D
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HallisChalmers

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Post Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:26 pm

Re: Hook picks v's Half diamond

ripmurph wrote: It may not make a lot of sense or be logical. I label it as a kind of obsessive compulsive lock picking disorder. And just as OCD is with everything - you do something a certain way for no rational reason or purpose.


Oh, oh...another OCD lockfreak.... :cry:

Actually, I have done some analytical thinking on this very subject - hookpick vs others.

I use to think the same thing, that a hook pick was the "way to do it". But I have since revised my theory based on my personal observation of my picking habits.

When I first started, it was all "rake and shake". But as I began to get a feel for SPP'ing, I would make a concentrated and determined effort to use only a short hook. It was all good.

But one day I accidentally picked up a half-diamond, and through sheer muscle memory, began to try and SPP the lock with the half-diamond. And it opened.

But wait a minute - that was a half-diamond and not my favorite short hook.

So what happened?

It was the muscle memory factor that did it. It had to be.

I just worked the diamond like a short hook - and it worked.

My observation is that it's not so much the feel of the tip of the pin in the cusp of the hook that allows us to set the pin - but instead it is actually the "drag" of the pick (either short hook, half-diamond, half ball, etc.) across the top of the pin (and the slight movement) that we actually feel.

So in essence, no matter what tool we use, we learn to compensate for the different types of working ends on the picks we're using and learn to feel the pin itself.

Does that make sense?

Just a theory of mine.
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bouncer965

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Post Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:37 pm

Re: Hook picks v's Half diamond

Makes sense to me Hallis. The difference in the feedback from different types of hooks is very noticeable to me. With a hook pick i can feel the pins a lot easier than with a half diamond. But in essence using a half diamond is favourable in certain locks after experimenting.

Even though i do admit that i am still getting used to the way a half diamond feels in the keyway i find it easier in some cases to set the pins correctly and avoiding more oversetting which i can get quite a bit with the hook picks.
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LocksmithArmy

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Post Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:48 am

Re: Hook picks v's Half diamond

I just have to hop in now...

so say I got my short hook or my half damond as my favorite... and I run into a lock i cant pick... well what the heck... y not... cause its got that famous long pin short pin thing...

all Im saying is thats why picks come in a set, 1 wont open everything so keep a half diamond, keep a short hook, and a medium and long just for the instance you may need it...

I prefer the hook because the mechanics makes more sence in my head, but i wont knock the half diamond, and a longer pick is sometimes needed...

enjoy, its is always fun reading different peoples openions...
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loki

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Post Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:53 am

Re: Hook picks v's Half diamond

Picking is more art than science. If for no other reason than the unique variaiblity of individual locks, their "personality" if you will.
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bouncer965

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Post Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:02 pm

Re: Hook picks v's Half diamond

loki wrote:Picking is more art than science. If for no other reason than the unique variaiblity of individual locks, their "personality" if you will.


Well some of my locks "personality" border on the pschizophrenic side. :D :D :D
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uklockpicker

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Post Mon Feb 22, 2010 1:42 pm

Re: Hook picks v's Half diamond

Im a short hook and diamond type of guy with the urge to use the bogata rake when frustrated ;)
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FriendlyFellow

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Post Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:29 pm

Re: Hook picks v's Half diamond

I find myself switching picks mid-lock sometimes to reach different pins. I have a lock with a standard behind some low spools, and I have to reach back and reset it several times with the half-diamond because only it can sneak back there. I switch back to my hook for the spools, though, because I like to lever the tip of the hook to set each spool, for more control than levering the whole shaft.
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macavity

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Post Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Hook picks v's Half diamond

FriendlyFellow wrote:I find myself switching picks mid-lock sometimes to reach different pins. I have a lock with a standard behind some low spools, and I have to reach back and reset it several times with the half-diamond because only it can sneak back there. I switch back to my hook for the spools, though, because I like to lever the tip of the hook to set each spool, for more control than levering the whole shaft.


I mostly pick scandinavian ovals from which you can always pick from the bottom but they have huge "pin travel", so i switch between a Deforest diamond, standard hook and half hook for much the same reasons. On a 7 pin lock I find it hard to reach anything with a half diamond without pushing other pins up with the shaft.

That being said, I think this whole old thread is kinda moot: People should use the tools that give them the result they desire for the reasons they desire. Locksmiths who work on the clock often just desire a fast open on standard residential locks. Nerdy IT guys like me who need a meditative hobby wants to "be the pick" and predict the last click before the open. Heck if I get an open too fast, or by surprise, I feel kinda cheated.

Still doesn't change the fact that I learn a lot from locksmiths. Still doesn't change the fact that I like to trade locks with (especially!) locksmiths.

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