Having touble with restrictive keyways

[Riff]

So I've got down SPP easier locks like master 3's and locks like them. I can feel everything going on inside the lock with relative ease. Finding whats binding and such. I've moved up to higher security locks like the master 140 and american locks. (I know 140's arent in the same class) I'm having a hard time with restricted keyways. (I guess they would be called that) I put the american down for a while and now working on the master 140 because I think it would be a little easier. It seems that I cannot get a good feel for the pins. I'm having a hard time getting underneath them. I can get underneath them but I feel as if I have no control in there. Like I'm forcing it. Not forcing literally, forcing my picking. I cant seem to have a delicate touch inside the lock with my pick like I have inside an easier lock like a master #3. It seems like I'm putting my pick inside and having to turn it sideways a bit to get my pick on the bottom of the pins. Am I doing things correctly? Any tips, advice, or criticism would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance guys.

[awol70]

So I've got down SPP easier locks like master 3's and locks like them. I can feel everything going on inside the lock with relative ease. Finding whats binding and such. I've moved up to higher security locks like the master 140 and american locks. (I know 140's arent in the same class) I'm having a hard time with restricted keyways. (I guess they would be called that) I put the american down for a while and now working on the master 140 because I think it would be a little easier. It seems that I cannot get a good feel for the pins. I'm having a hard time getting underneath them. I can get underneath them but I feel as if I have no control in there. Like I'm forcing it. Not forcing literally, forcing my picking. I cant seem to have a delicate touch inside the lock with my pick like I have inside an easier lock like a master #3. It seems like I'm putting my pick inside and having to turn it sideways a bit to get my pick on the bottom of the pins. Am I doing things correctly? Any tips, advice, or criticism would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance guys.

riff, i think you mean "restrictive"
restricted means you must be of signing authority to reproduce keys for that profile.
for key control. =)
Are you levering off wards,or the inside of the bore at the bottom of the keyway?

[Riff]

So I've got down SPP easier locks like master 3's and locks like them. I can feel everything going on inside the lock with relative ease. Finding whats binding and such. I've moved up to higher security locks like the master 140 and american locks. (I know 140's arent in the same class) I'm having a hard time with restricted keyways. (I guess they would be called that) I put the american down for a while and now working on the master 140 because I think it would be a little easier. It seems that I cannot get a good feel for the pins. I'm having a hard time getting underneath them. I can get underneath them but I feel as if I have no control in there. Like I'm forcing it. Not forcing literally, forcing my picking. I cant seem to have a delicate touch inside the lock with my pick like I have inside an easier lock like a master #3. It seems like I'm putting my pick inside and having to turn it sideways a bit to get my pick on the bottom of the pins. Am I doing things correctly? Any tips, advice, or criticism would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance guys.

riff, i think you mean "restrictive"
restricted means you must be of signing authority to reproduce keys for that profile.
for key control. =)
Are you levering off wards,or the inside of the bore at the bottom of the keyway?

Thank you for correcting me Awol. I meant restrictive. Not restricted....lol .... No, I havent been levering off the ward. I'm not sure what you mean about the inside of the bore at the bottom of the keyway. When I SPP any lock I usually use the bottom of the keyway to a certain extent for leverage in combination with my finger. Is that what you are referring to? I'm tried using the bottom part of the keyway but I cant seem to hit the bottom of the pins without pushing up and turning the pick a bit....feels kinda awkward. Thanks for you help. I'll try riding my pick between the ward and the pins....maybe that will help. Thanks!

[awol70]

no sweat...you will find if you switch to TOK tension,the empty space where your TW used to
sit, at the bottom of the keyway,it will give incredibly good feedback (even if only used to LOCATE unset spools)
if you gently lever the heel of your pick in that empty spot,because you are eliminating all binding caused by BOK tension...
you will have to keep your pick to the left of this spacee ,to accomodate the return of the plug during setting stuck spoorated spools...

[Riff]

I tried using the ward and it seems like it is already helping me say under then pins. It seems like there isint much room though. When I put the pick in between the ward and the pins there isint much room to work.... I guess I'll just need to get used to it. You also read my mind. I was about going to say that I guess I need to start using TOK tension. I did order a TOK set from ya remember?? I'm not sure what you meant though when you said, "you will have to keep your pick to the left of this spacee ,to accomodate the return of the plug during setting stuck spoorated spools..." Can you please explain this a little more? Thanks again Awol.....

[the lockpickkid]

After picking lots of American locks and others that are better made, I go back to the Master 3, 5, 21, etc, and I can't believe how sloppy they are, Riff, once you get these Americans down you will find that you don't need as much room as you think, those Masters do have lots of room and sometimes you need it, like Awol said, maybe try the top of keyway tension, you might pick these alot easier, I don't hardely ever use the top but it is an option. As for the Master 140, your not far off from picking one of these, just keep playing with it, you will open every one you see when you get the hang of it.

[Riff]

I think I'm having trouble because when I lift my pick I'm hitting the bottom of the ward instead of hitting the bottom of the pins. (when I dont put the pick between the ward and the pins) I guess that's what the restrictive keyway is supost to do lol.

[awol70]

my apologies,riff,in my haste to help i said "left side"
i meant the right side,like this.

DSC04558.JPG

[Solomon]

It's all about the way you angle the pick... a lot of our key profiles here are very slim and jagged, sometimes on top of this they're also quite small. They don't pose much of a problem, but it definately takes some getting used to. You need to angle your pick to the left/right in a way that gets around the warding... sometimes you have to zigzag your pick, like a snake, from the top of the keyway as you push the pins down (or vice versa, if the pins are at the top).

This is all to do with practice and finding something that suits you. Just play around with those locks, practice manipulating the front pin so you can see the way your pick should be moving around to push it all the way down then do the same for the back pin. It's tricky but you'll get the hang of it.

[magician59]

Your picks are too large. You need smaller profile picks. I use Rytan's mini blue picks. The dimensions are about 20% smaller than their standard profile counterparts. There are other similar products available; but you may even try your hand at making your own...it's very rewarding.

[Riff]

Thanks everyone for all of the advice. I looked into Rytan picks before. I own just about every other set. What stoped me from buying them is that I heard that the picks did not have a full tang. Besides that, I correspond with a Rytan representative inquiring about a particular pick and he came off as a real hard ass. He wanted me to provide him with all kinds of credentials. He wanted all of my credentials even before I was trying to make an order! He didnt even want to answer my question about a pick without providing all kinds of info about myself. I was like chill dude, I'm just asking a quesiton. It wasnt even a "sensitive" question. Kinda left a bad taste in my mouth. Smaller picks may help, but Ive seen lots of people pick many locks like this with HPC, Klom, southord, ect.

Your picks are too large. You need smaller profile picks. I use Rytan's mini blue picks. The dimensions are about 20% smaller than their standard profile counterparts. There are other similar products available; but you may even try your hand at making your own...it's very rewarding.

[HallisChalmers]

Thanks everyone for all of the advice. I looked into Rytan picks before. I own just about every other set. What stoped me from buying them is that I heard that the picks did not have a full tang. Besides that, I correspond with a Rytan representative inquiring about a particular pick and he came off as a real hard ass. He wanted me to provide him with all kinds of credentials. He wanted all of my credentials even before I was trying to make an order! He didnt even want to answer my question about a pick without providing all kinds of info about myself. I was like chill dude, I'm just asking a quesiton. It wasnt even a "sensitive" question. Kinda left a bad taste in my mouth. Smaller picks may help, but Ive seen lots of people pick many locks like this with HPC, Klom, southord, ect.

That's to be expected, man. You were playing the game on his turf - so he makes the rules. You're going to get that door slammed in your face a lot more using that approach. I'm not berating you or flaming - just asking that you look at it from his point of view.

You have to understand that to a factory rep - a recreational "locksportist" is his worst nightmare. You are one of the unwashed masses that is not part of the locksmith's trade - an interloper.

The last thing he wants to imagine in his corporate mindset is a groggy homeowner shooting some kid that was picking the lock on the neighbor's front door - and lay there dying with a set of internet-bought Rytan short hooks and rake picks - and a Andy Panda teddybear clutched in his hand.

Can you imagine how that guy is going to feel the next day as he gets blamed for putting those deadly high capacity "assault picks" in the poor kids hands? Why the handwringing by the media alone will cause the wholesale cost of moist towelettes to increase 10%!

Now do you see why the guy was so gun shy?

[Riff]

Thanks everyone for all of the advice. I looked into Rytan picks before. I own just about every other set. What stoped me from buying them is that I heard that the picks did not have a full tang. Besides that, I correspond with a Rytan representative inquiring about a particular pick and he came off as a real hard ass. He wanted me to provide him with all kinds of credentials. He wanted all of my credentials even before I was trying to make an order! He didnt even want to answer my question about a pick without providing all kinds of info about myself. I was like chill dude, I'm just asking a quesiton. It wasnt even a "sensitive" question. Kinda left a bad taste in my mouth. Smaller picks may help, but Ive seen lots of people pick many locks like this with HPC, Klom, southord, ect.

That's to be expected, man. You were playing the game on his turf - so he makes the rules. You're going to get that door slammed in your face a lot more using that approach. I'm not berating you or flaming - just asking that you look at it from his point of view.

You have to understand that to a factory rep - a recreational "locksportist" is his worst nightmare. You are one of the unwashed masses that is not part of the locksmith's trade - an interloper.

The last thing he wants to imagine in his corporate mindset is a groggy homeowner shooting some kid that was picking the lock on the neighbor's front door - and lay there dying with a set of internet-bought Rytan short hooks and rake picks - and a Andy Panda teddybear clutched in his hand.

Can you imagine how that guy is going to feel the next day as he gets blamed for putting those deadly high capacity "assault picks" in the poor kids hands? Why the handwringing by the media alone will cause the wholesale cost of moist towelettes to increase 10%!

Now do you see why the guy was so gun shy?

I understand all that Hallis. I want bitching about it. Just relaying my experience. All I was aking the guy was if they offered an offset diamond in the slimmer style picks or something. While I do understand completely why he wouldnt sell me something without credentials, I do not understand why he could answer the question if they make them or not. I dont remember my exact question. I never told him I was into locksport or anything. It was basically: Do you make this??? and he answered with what I told you. My question contained was nothing that they dont offer or show on the internet. It was just very hard to tell from the picture. No matter if he wanted to tell me what I wanted to know or not, I still dont think he had to be a dick about it. I have pleanty of credentials at hand but I'm not going to start faxing some random guy private information for him to answer a simple yes or no question (or going through all that trouble). Due to his attitude he lost a potential customer. I'm not hard to get along with.

[nozza36]

Riff , what type of tip does your hook have ?
I'm asking as i struggled with my American locks when trying to spp
with hooks that had a pointed or rounded tip , but when i made a flat
topped hook tip it was like waving a magic wand !
Shazam ! opens quicker than a door to door salesmans mouth.

[Riff]

Riff , what type of tip does your hook have ?
I'm asking as i struggled with my American locks when trying to spp
with hooks that had a pointed or rounded tip , but when i made a flat
topped hook tip it was like waving a magic wand !
Shazam ! opens quicker than a door to door salesmans mouth.

Well nozz I have quite a few hooks with different tips I can use. I try all of them at one point or another. I mainly use an HPC shorthook that has a pretty flat tip. I Also use a majestic shorthook alot that has an even flatter tip. I'll surely keep that in mind. Thanks!