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Q's on quantifying or visualizing manipulation resistance?

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shper2

Newbie

Posts: 1

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:18 pm

Location: Maryland

Post Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:56 pm

Q's on quantifying or visualizing manipulation resistance?

Hello,

I have a few questions regarding the manipulation protection of mechanical combination locks used on safes and how to visualize this.

I have been invited to be part of a discussion regarding gun safes. As you likely know, 99% of gun safes are terrible. Makers often use major advertising to cover up security vulnerabilities. This deception often results in a buyer purchasing a safe that is not appropriate to protect their valuables.

The first part of the discussion is easy to illustrate with pictures. Cutouts of the armor, videos of an attack, and a first hand demonstration of how rapidly a safe with 10-16 gauge armor will fail all make a clear argument why a B-rate, C-rate, TL-15, or TL-30+ is worth the investment in many circumstances. Likewise, explaining the difference in testing temps and internal temp can easily clarify fire ratings.

That will evolve to talk about the lock. I feel it is important to stress that as safe armor increases, it may in fact result in a higher probability of a manipulation attack for the simple reason that a manipulation attack may be faster and easier to achieve the same outcome as a penetration attack (defeating the safe and stealing the contents.)

This leads to a discussion about the tendency of safe makers to use cheaper UL Group 2 locks and locks that do not conform to any accepted standard. Advertising has given many the impression that UL Group 2 locks are “high security” locks. I want to address this and make an argument for investing in a premium lock, often one with slightly more manipulation resistance, such as the S&G 6630.

On the materials side, I will make my argument based on the fact that premium locks generally use an extensive amount of brass where as cheaper locks use other materials without the track record of brass components.

How can I quantify or visualize the manipulation side of this? More or less to get someone to consider a Group 2M or a Group 1 depending on the safe. While manipulation proof locks have ratings, obviously Group 2 locks have no rating at all. Is there such thing as an average time to defeat a G 2 or a non-rated 3-wheel mechanical lock?

Thanks much for your input.
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dmasters

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Posts: 126

Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:14 pm

Location: Pacific Northwest

Post Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:05 am

Re: Q's on quantifying or visualizing manipulation resistanc

shper2 wrote:While manipulation proof locks have ratings, obviously Group 2 locks have no rating at all.


First, there is no such thing a manipulation-proof lock. They can be resistant, but nothing ever produced has been "proof".

Second, Group 2 IS the rating per UL Standard 768 which has been adopted by both ANSI and the DoD. These locks are approved for use on both B and C rated safes, but not recommended for TL-15's or 30's.

shper2 wrote:Is there such thing as an average time to defeat a G 2 or a non-rated 3-wheel mechanical lock?


In a word: no. The best manipulators in world can open a Group 2 in minutes if not seconds, but I doubt they ever expect them to open that fast. And I wouldn't get to hung up on manipulation during a typical home invasion. Unless they know there is something worth the effort, most thieves would just crowbar the tin-cans open.

1... 2... 3... my ¢3

-D
Official Urine in the Breakfast Cereal


On an afterthought, most insurance companies won't cover stolen property if it wasn't properly secured. Policies that cover high-ticket items have a laundry list of security requirements including a PROPER safe. Maybe shake that tree? A fourth cent :)
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mastersmith

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Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 4:16 pm

Location: Miami Township, Ohio

Post Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:16 pm

Re: Q's on quantifying or visualizing manipulation resistanc

shper2, what is your function on this panel? And what is the panel trying to accomplish, if I might ask? It might help us to help you.
"All ye who come this art to see / to handle anything must cautious be...." Benjamin Franklin

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