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LocksportSouth's Stash

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LocksportSouth

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Active Member

Posts: 369

Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:51 am

Location: UK

Post Tue May 17, 2016 9:29 am

Re: LocksportSouth's Stash

DTW - Thank you! :)

Along with my new Sargent and Greenleaf 826C that I recently received, I also got this beauty:

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It’s a lock from a safety deposit box as used at banks etc – this one is Yale branded. These locks are fitted to the deposit boxes and have two keyways – one for the customer and one for the bank or institution. When the customer needs to access their box, they and a bank representative will both jointly be at the box, and both keys are required to open the lock, ensuring that the bank cannot open the customer’s box by themselves and conversely a customer cannot open anyone else’s box, or even their own without the bank staff present. This ensures higher security and trust in both directions. At least, that’s my understanding!

I believe that the bank key side is the same bitting for all locks at that bank branch (or institution of any kind), whereas the customer side is normally unique for each lock. Because the bank has more to lose from losing one of their keys, and because only one key is owned by the customer, I believe this is why with these kind of locks often the bank side key is missing. In this case, I have the original customer keys and a duplicate bank key.

Going forward, I’ll refer to the customer side (for reference, that’s the left-hand side keyway with the larger, 6 pin key) as the Operator key and the “bank” side (that’s the right hand keyway, which is smaller and takes a 5 pin key) as the Control key – not because that’s the correct terminology (I’m not sure if there *is* a correct terminology?) but because that makes the most sense to me coming from an S&G perspective (although the keys don’t really perform the same job, since in this case BOTH keyways are needed to open the lock rather than one keyway with two directions of operation as per the S&G locks, but I digress). I’m trying to avoid making the assumption that a bank would be the only entity to use these, so if you know of a better term for the two keyways, do let me know!

Moving on then. This lock has a lovely finish:

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Even though it’s dirty and worn, it still looks great and you can imagine how shiny a brand new one would look! It seems to utilise a solid brass body and a copper front plate, with a brass cylinder. The main cylinder sticks out quite a way from the body and I assume the body itself would be mounted inside the box, whilst the cylinder with both plugs will stick out through the front of the box. The front of the cylinder has the Yale logo and both keyways side by side – the larger Operator plug on the left and the smaller Control plug on the right. The two grey screws on the top left and bottom right corners are used to disassemble the lock – the front plate with the cylinder comes out forwards from the body and the five-sided body shell is left behind (we’ll get to that later). There are also four large empty screw holes which I assume is where the lock body would be attached to the inside of the deposit box.

Here’s a shot of the operator key:

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It appears to be the original Yale key, which is very cool. The front of the key is stamped “YALE Paracentric” and “Yale & Towne MFG.CO. Stamford.Conn.U.S.A.” and the serial number. We can see that this is a 6 pin key, and has an interesting cut-out on the reverse side of the key shaft, about 2/3rds of the way down. We’ll see if we can figure out why during disassembly!

Reverse of the key:

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This code seems too short to be a blind code (and I assume that’s what the serial number on the other side is for) so I assume this is an identifier for the bank or institution that it was used. Maybe box number 2817, or room 2, row 8, box 17 or something like that.

Close up of the bitting and that reverse cutout:

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Here you can see both original keys:

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Here’s the bank/control key, which is on a JMA blank – I assume this was cut to code or to the lock’s bitting after the lock was obtained:

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And the back of the key – I assume these letter/number combinations refer to the key profile?

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Back to the lock body then. Here’s the back of the lock case:

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Pretty simple!
Side/edge of cylinder:

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Front again:

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Now, let’s see how this lock works. As I understand it, there are two types of bicentric locks – dual custody, and shared custody. Both are locks with two keyways, but with dual custody, both keys must be inserted and turned in order to open the lock. With shared custody, either of the two keys can unlock the lock by themselves. This is a dual custody lock.

If we insert and turn just the control key:

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We see that nothing happens – the bolt (on the left side) does not retract.
Now let’s try inserting just the operator key:

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The key will insert fully, but will not turn – something is blocking it from rotating (I should note that it’s the operator key which actually actuates the lock and retracts the bolt, although unexpectedly the control key does actually interact with the bolt in its own way – it’s not just jamming the operator key closed!):

If we insert both keys, and then turn the control key...

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... We can then rotate the operator key, retracting the bolt:

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Note that doing so automatically resets the control key to the upright position.
At this time, the bank teller (or other authorised person) will remove their key and walk away, allowing the box owner to retrieve / store their contents in privacy:

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When they are done, all that is needed to secure the lock again fully is to rotate the operator key back to the locked position as normal, driving the bolt out – note that once locked, the control key will again be needed to unlock the lock:

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So, how does it work? Well, let’s take a look and see if we can figure it out...
First, we have to remove those two flat-head screws from the front plate:

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Then (with the aid of a screwdriver to gently pry the front plate off if it doesn’t want to leave!), remove the front plate:

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Here is the inside of the lock body:

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You can see the bolt unit on the left extending most of the way through the body, and a spring-loaded lever in the top right. That’s all there is to this part!

Here’s the back of the front plate / cylinder:

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Two regular cylinders with special tail pieces.
Both parts together:

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I will now attempt, as best I can, to describe the operation of this lock – please excuse any mistakes as I’m doing this entirely through trial and error, and learning as I go! I will be using a modified (numbered) version of the above image:

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I’ve numbered the parts to make it easier to refer to them. I’ll detail the parts (and any other names I might call them!) below.

1 – Bolt (or Bolt assembly)
2 – Bolt nub
3 – Bolt lever indents (upper and lower)
4 – Bolt lever

5 – Operator cylinder actuator tab
6 – Operator cylinder actuator lower interlock
7 – Control cylinder actuator upper tab
8 – Control cylinder actuator lower interlock

Again – these probably have proper names. Excuse my ignorance!

So, let’s start out by defining what the lock is required to do, and what doesn’t work, and why, before we look at how it works. The lock requirements are that it requires two keys to unlock – more than that, the operator key is not allowed to unlock the bolt without the control key, and the control key is not allowed to unlock the bolt at all. The operator key must return the control key to a removable position once the bolt retracts (so that the staff/supervisor can leave to give the customer privacy), and the customer should be able to lock the box fully without needing the staff member to return.

First then, why can’t the operator key rotate without the control key present? When the front plate is fitted into the body, (5) sits between (2) and the right-hand edge of the bolt (1), where the slope finishes. The odd > share cutout in the edge of that bolt (1) slope is where the right hand edge of (5) (and the continued round right hand edge of the actuator thereafter) fits into the bolt. As bolt (1) is fixed in place, so too the actuator 5 is prevented from moving, and since that’s attached to the plug with screws, the plug and thus the key cannot move either.

As a quick aside, why can’t bolt (1) move? Well, it’s hard to tell in these photos but where the bolt enters the body just to the right of (1), the bolt is actually much thicker inside the body (going all the way down to the bottom of the lock case), so only the bit that is protruding is actually able to fit through the hole in the lock case. In the other direction, nub (2) is “stuck” on (3), which prevents it from moving further into the lock case. This part is core to the locking mechanism.

With that question answered, why can’t the control key open the lock by itself? Well, let’s look at what the control key does. When you rotate it clockwise, (7) rotates anti-clockwise, as does (8). The top point of (7) fits into the chevron ^ shaped cut-out that is (4). As you turn the key, the nub on (7) pushes against (4), lifting the lever (under spring tension provided by the lever spring above the (4) lever) until nub (2) is clear of the upper notch (3) and now lines up with the lower notch (3). Thus, the control key can move the lever out of the way of the nub (2), but it does not and cannot actually interact with the bolt assembly (1) at all – there’s no way for the control cylinder to actuator the bolt.

You may ask “Well, with the control key unlocking the lever, can’t I just push the bolt in from the end?” – Nope, because the actuator tab (5) is still locked between (2) and the right hand edge of the bolt (1), preventing the bolt assembly from moving. If the control cylinder has been unlocked and the correct operator key is in the keyway, you can push the bolt in, since because the operator cylinder is technically “unlocked” (correct key inserted and cleared the shear line, thus it’s able to rotate), pushing on the bolt applies rotational pressure to (5) and thus the cylinder by means of pushing on (2) and the right edge of the bolt assembly, causing it to turn.

Note that you cannot turn the control key anti-clockwise rather than clockwise, because the lower right edge of (7) gets stuck on the left hand edge of (5), as you can see in the labelled picture.

So, now we’ve addressed that – let’s try to discuss how this lock works.

First, you insert the control key and turn it. As you turn the key clockwise, (7) and (8) turn anti-clockwise as seen from the reverse. As (7) turns clockwise / to the right as seen from looking down into the lock case perspective, it pushes on the right hand side of the chevron ^ cutout at the (4) position. The spring lever above (4) provides spring tension as you turn the key, and the lever, pivoting on the rod at the far right side of the lock case (immediately right of where the spring is locked into the lever), rotates upwards. This causes the upper notch (3) in the lever to be lifted clear of nub (2), freeing the way for the bolt (1) to slide back until nub (2) fits into the lower notch of notch (3).

At the same time as you are rotating the control key and causing (7) to do the work, (8) is also rotating towards the upper end of the gap above (6). When fully rotated, point (8) will be entirely filling the gap above (6), like so:

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The control key is now “set”, and the lock is ready to receive the operator’s key (which may have already been inserted, but would not have been turnable until this point because (5) was caught between the edge of the bolt (1) and the nub (2), which in turn was caught on the upper bolt lever indent (3)).

Note that with no control key inserted, the operator’s key cannot turn in either direction due to the info in the last paragraph, and even with the control key inserted, the key cannot turn anti-clockwise because the right hand edge of bolt (1) will stop it. Likewise, when the bolt is open you cannot turn the key clockwise any more, as nub (2) is now jammed on the lower indent of lever indent (3).

We now insert the operators key and also turn clockwise. As we do so, (5), trapped between (2) and the edge of the bolt (1) on the other side, exerts pressure on the left-hand edge of nub (2). This converts rotational pressure (from the key) into horizontal/longitudinal pressure. With the lever now lifted and the upper bolt lever indent (3) no longer blocking the path, (5) slides bolt (1) to the right until nub (2) now sits against the left hand edge of the lower lever bolt indent – at this point the exterior portion of bolt (1) is now (almost) fully inserted into the lock body. Here’s a photo of how this looks inside the lock body:

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As you can see, the bolt is fully retracted and the nub (2) is now resting against the second (lower) notch/indent in the bolt lever (3).

So at this point, the lock is open. But you’ll remember from earlier that when you turn the op key, the control key returns to the removal-able position for the staff member to take the key away. How does this work? Let’s take a look – it’s one of the main reasons for the interlock functionality on the back of the plug actuators. You may want to refer to the photo from a couple of pictures back, showing the interlocking actuators on the back of the plugs, in the “control unlocked” position.

Like the control plug actuator (7) and (8), whilst the operator plug is turning and (5) is retracting the bolt as previously described, the lower interlock on the control cylinder actuator (6) is also rotating anti-clockwise. As it does so, the edge of the actuator above the gap from (6) (damn, I should have added more numbers!) presses down on the newly-mating (8) edge. As it does do, it rotates the control key actuator back in the clockwise direction, until (5) has rotated to roughly the 12 O’clock position (bolt (1) fully retracted) and the control plug has been rotated back to the 12 O’clock position also, allowing the control key to be removed. Note that the control key cannot be turned back again in this position, as the bottom-right edge of (7) now catches on the rounded edge above (6), as follows:

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The control key can now be removed from the lock, and the customer left in privacy. When they are done with the box, it can be re-locked simply by rotating (anti-clockwise) and removing the operator key. Let’s look at how that works.

Note that the control key actuator ((7) and (8)) is already in its “final” locked position. Rotating the operator actuator (5) and (6) does not interact at all with (7) and (8) at this point. On the back of the front plate, rotating the operator key to the lock position simply means that (5) will rotate until it reaches the position shown in the lower photo in the numbered picture, and stop.

Inside the lock body, as (5) rotates left / anti-clockwise, the left-hand edge of (5) pushes on the right hand edge of the bolt (1) cutout (where the > shaped cutout is, at the bottom of the slope). This pushes the bolt (1) back in the left-hand direction, pushing the locking bolt out of the body. Nub (2) also slides along the underside of the lower indent of the lever (3), until it clears the gap for the upper indent. At that time, the lever, being under constant spring pressure from the lever spring, will snap down, returning the nub (2) to sitting in the upper indent of the lever as shown in the upper image from the numbered picture. At this time, the lock has been re-locked and cannot be opened again with just the operator key, even if the key is not removed – because the nub (2) is now once again jammed on the upper indent of lever (3).

Phew! I hope that all made sense – I think this is one of those occasions where a short video would have been quicker and easier to understand, hope hopefully this is of use to someone :).

Let’s move on now to stripping the lock cylinders (if possible), and see what pins they hold!

We’ll start by looking at the back of the lock:

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That’s an interesting silver tab attached to the copper plate & “body” of the front plate. Surely this is what holds the cylinder on, right? But why is there only one of them?

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Hmm, nope, that’s not it. Just a small half-circular metal disk, and the cylinders won’t come out from the main front plate. So, what’s this for? Well, let’s look at where it attaches to the cylinder:

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So – it’s embedded in the main cylinder between the pin stacks as you can see. It seems to intersect the keyway itself... Let’s think back to the keys – didn’t they have a weird cut on the back of them?

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Yup, that’s what it’s for. The cut-out in the silver disk (see a couple of photos back) creates a gap in the keyway to allow the key to insert normally, but when the key is turned, the plug will rotate and the non-cut-out areas will intersect the keyway. If you weren’t using these correct keys, with the cutout that fits into any portion of the semi-circular disk, the plug would be unable to rotate. An interesting piece of key control!

With that out of the way, it’s time to remove the rear cylinder actuators – one for each plug:

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Two simple slotted screws in each:

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Back of the plugs:

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As I inserted the key and got the lock ready to gut (large cylinder first), I accidentally let the rearmost driver pin pop out. What a strange looking pin! We’ll get to that soon:

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Large (operator) plug removed – 6 pins:

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Note the cut-outs on the edges around 2/3rds of the way down, where that silver disk intersects with this plug. I never tried, but I assume it’d be impossible to remove this plug without removing that disk first, since it will be embedded into that groove and hold the plug in place.

Key pins removed:

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We see that these are all the same kind of pin – no actual security pins as such (in the sense of spools, serrated, etc) but these are almost like very, very finely serrated pins – loads of fine grooves go all the way up each pin, similar to screw threading. Interesting that this is on the key pins, not the drivers.

Emptied plug:

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On the back of the plug with the key inserted, you can see where the cut in the back of the key lines up with the groove in the plug and the disk:

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Front plate with the operator cylinder removed:

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Note you can just about see the first key pin in the other plug – it looks to be the same type of pin!

Springs and driver pins removed from the operator plug:

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Note that the drivers looks *exactly* like the key pins, and the key pins just look like rods that have had their tips sharpened a lot. My theory is that these pins are made from either screw-threaded thin rods, or smooth rods which are then screw-threaded after being made, and are then cut to size and sharpened on the end if they are to become key pins. This is backed up by the fact that some of the pins have a little “nipple” – pinch-off point in the centre of their end where they were crimped to size. This means that both the key pins and driver pins can be “serrated” (and it seems like both pin chambers (plug and housing) are threaded as well, although it’s hard to tell for sure), at the expense of all pins having to be the same “size” – there are no traditional spool, mushroom, etc shapes here.

The smaller, control cylinder (5 pins) was then stripped – here they are next to each other:

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Note how, since they both have to be the same length (as they both “start” at the same place in the front of the lock, and as they both have to “end” at the same place for the actuators to work) but the smaller plug is only 5 pins, there is an unusually long gap of “no pins” at the back of the plug.

Front of the cylinder with both plugs removed:

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Smaller cylinder pins – exactly the same kind as the larger one:

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All the pins laid out – Operator cylinder on the left (6 pins), control on the right (5 pins):

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All the lock parts laid out:

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It’s time for a clean! In my time-honoured tradition, I soaked the larger parts in GUNK and cleaned off the pins individually using GUNK and WD-40. Took ages and the pins just kept producing black/grey grime on the cloth! I assume the hundreds of tiny threads didn’t help with storing all that c**p, haha. Here’s the parts after cleaning:

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If you look at this photo and then the last, you’ll realise that the body is a bit more stripped down now – the bolt assembly and lever spring have been removed. I didn’t realise they could be removed until I was shaking the lock body upside down (after GUNKing) and they started falling out, so I stripped them out and cleaned them properly too.

In the process of re-assembly:

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I lubed up the cylinders with Tri-flow and the back of the bolt assembly with Lithium grease to make it slide easier back and forth now. Oddly the lock cylinders seem to “catch” more and have trouble opening sometimes now, after cleaning – maybe the grime was helping the lock function better, haha! I did also flatten off those “moulding marks” on the end of the pins, so I wonder if the added length created by those helped the pins be at the correct height?

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Totally re-assembled:

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What an awesome lock! I loved learning all about how it works and stripping it down – now I just need to find a way to mount it!

Thanks for joining me :).
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LocksportSouth

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Posts: 369

Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:51 am

Location: UK

Post Tue May 17, 2016 8:40 pm

Re: LocksportSouth's Stash

After what feels like forever, a much-awaited package just arrived:

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The company that I got this stuff from gives away some cool free gifts (read: marketing materials):

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The boxes:

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The locks:

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It’s a DOM Diamant and an EVVA MCS! Both half Euro cylinders, 30mm.
This is a continuation on my journey to find some “proper” cylinders to fit into my Rotalok padlocks – you may recall my other Rotalok threads elsewhere, but the long and short of it is that my original Rotalok came with an Abus E60 cylinder and I spent a lot of time and frustration trying to figure out what kind of off-the-shelf cylinders could fit it, what modifications would be needed, and what the variations of different Rotalok bodies you can get are. Seems that for every answer were three more questions and I haven’t yet reached the end of the road, but it seems like we’re one step closer!

I did later on pick up another Rota, this one with a CISA Astral cylinder and learnt a bit more about cam interfaces and other things, but as I say – more questions than answers. Will these two cylinders be my salvation?

The cylinders will first need their Euro cams removing to work with the slotted actuator at the back of the locks. Let’s start taking a look at the locks, one at a time.

We’ll start with the DOM:

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Seems they use the same boxes for double and single Euros:

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Cylinder and key:

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The key has a cool bow shape and the key itself is very interesting:

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Key profile:

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Here’s the body, with the Euro actuator still attached. Note the reinforced metal bar at the bottom, which is used instead of the usual continuation of the regular body metal with the purpose of thwarting cylinder snapping attacks:

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Front of the lock:

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Damn, that’s cool. Kinda like an Abloy, but not.

Other side of the cylinder:

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The bar on the bottom is held on by this screw:

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Just a simple Torx, but beware – removing this by itself does not allow the bar to fall off. See the tongue-and-groove shaped cut on the left? That ensures that the bar can only slide directly downwards, but the cylinder end is currently held in with a plug thingy at the back of the lock. What you actually have to do (I forgot o photograph the process) is:

1. Remove the bottom screw (you can do that in any order, really)
2. Use a C-clip remover to remove the clip at the back of the clinder, between the grey Euro actuator and the back ring (which is attached to this bottom bar)
3. Rotate the lock until you can see the edges of the sticky-out part of the grey Euro actuator. You’ll see a pin/spring assembly inside – you need to insert a very small tool (needle or something) to depress the pin and slide the rear plug out through the end ring

Then, you can remove all the other parts :).

Here’s the rear plug I was talking about:

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All the little holes in the side are to receive the pin/spring assembly from the Euro actuator.

Bottom screw, end plug and the clip from the rear of the cylinder:

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Here’s the Euro Actuator ring (Not sure if it has a proper name). Note the pin and spring assembly previously mentioned on the right hand side:

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Here’s the bottom bar and rear ring part:

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With all that removed, here’s the back of the cylinder – looks promising!

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This is how the cylinder looks without the added gubbins:

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Front again:

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All the disassembled parts:

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I won’t be doing a full cylinder breakdown, because that’s not the point of this lock purchase (fixing my Rotaloks is!) and in any case, someone Far more talented than I has already done the job far better than I could. Seriously, go check out Gordon’s breakdown, it’s really good!

Let’s move on now to the EVVA MCS!

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Compared to the Diamant, this looks like a fairly normal cylinder – but it is anything but!

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Unfortunately, I’ve been thwarted at the first turn:

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Whilst the bottom bar on this lock thankfully seems to just fall away, I don’t have the special screwdriver needed to unscrew this and after a lot of messing around, I’ve bitten the bullet and bought a screwdriver set or two – so now we wait! I’ll come back and update this thread once I’ve been able to test to MCS as well.

It’s a really lovely cylinder though, and even if it doesn’t work out in the Rotalok I hope to find a purpose or display method for it in the future.

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If you’ve not heard about the MCS or looked into how it works, you should! It uses magnets, and it’s very cool.

Moving on, then! Here’s a shot of the two Rotaloks, disassembled and ready for testing:

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We’ll start with (my) newer Rotalok – the open shackle black trimmed one. Here’s a shot of the old cylinder (right) next to the new cylinder (left) (Testing the DOM Diamant for now, since I can’t get the MCS apart yet):

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We can immediately see a possible problem – the old lock has been cut horizontally at the back of the actuator as well as vertically, however we can file away some metal if needed. With this lock, we also need a cam interface to go between the cylinder and back of the lock, so let’s test that next.

Cam interface on the old cylinder:

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And the new one...

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Yeah, not a chance. The interface piece fits in the horizontal gap on the old cylinder, and the existing cutouts in the new cylinder are wider on one side than the other anyway. I don’t really want to take a file to the new cylinder unless I have to, and modifying the cam interface for the new cylinder (which may not even fit) will all but guaranteed break it’s functionality with the old cylinder. Now, supposedly you *can* buy other cam interfaces, one of which may work with the DOM, but I haven’t yet been able to find a supplier who can provide me with these, so it’s looking unlikely.

Quick shot of the rear plug of the new lock, showing the actuator lugs – note how one side is smaller than the other:

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Let’s just slot the cylinder into the lock and see how it looks:

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Oops! Seems a bit short – probably because of the lack of cam interface. So by that logic, it should fit fine in my other Rota that doesn’t use cam interfaces, right?

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Wrong. I think maybe I bought a size too small? Like, the 30mm was the wrong size, even though I’ve heard it said (and I think read somewhere as well) that the Rotaloks take 30mm half Euros. I think maybe 5mm bigger would have helped, but I can’t really afford to keep buying all different sizes and shapes just to see if one will fit – sucks. Also, I suspect every model of Rota is slightly different, because I’ve see a few models now that all work slightly differently for no good reason.

One final problem – let’s put the bottom plate on:

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In addition to the cylinder being too short, it’s also a central-hole lock, like an Abloy – whereas most keys are long and flat, and the cutout in the bottom plate is designed to facilitate limiting the degree of rotation of such a key to within the neatly defined variables of the lock, these round keys that sit perfectly at the centre of the hole also sit perfectly at the centre of the point in the bottom plate there the two points converge, making it impossible to turn the key. I *could* file or drill away enough of the bottom plate to allow the key to turn, but then that’s also damaging the security and possibly effecting how the lock will function in the future if a regular flat key is re-fitted.

So, it looks sadly like the DOM won’t be the cylinder to work in these locks. I guess that means we can throw out all Abloy cylinders for the same reason.

Still, it’s a lovely lock:

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Maybe one day I can find a nice lock body to fit it into....

In the meantime, I have higher hopes for the MCS – whilst it might still be too short, there’s a chance that the back of the plug will work with the cam interface from my open shackle rota, and due to the “regular” shape key it should work fine with the bottom plate cut-out.

Will it fit?
We’ll find out in a future update, when I get the tools I need to open it up!

As it turns out, my new tools arrived before I got around to posting the “last half” of this post, so let’s dive straight back in!

After managing to completely screw up (heh) the oddly-shaped screw head on the EVVA MCS, and unable to get anything to fit into the hole (I tried Tox, Hex, Phillips, Slotted and all manner of security screwdrivers that I had lying around but the screw just wouldn’t budge), I had no choice but to await the delivery of some tools. I had both the (theoretically) correct Pentalobe screwdrivers enroute, as well as some destructive tools to try and break through should the screwdrivers fail. I got two of the screwdrivers kits in today, and after testing out many of the ends I started attacking the screw with a automatic centre punch, convinced at this point that it’d be impossible to screw out at that point. I did randomly try screwdrivers as I went, as I couldn’t seem to break through the thick, and seemingly hardened steel screw. Just when I thought all hope was lost, a screwdriver – a slotted one at that – finally was able to make the screw budge and start to turn! Success!

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Wow, that’s a weird screw... Bolt... Thing. I wonder if or how I’ll be able to find a replacement? Maybe one with a less strange type.

Screw next to the cylinder that it came out of:

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Thankfully, unlike the Diamant, disassembling the MCS is much simpler – the bottom bar just slides out at seen here....

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....But watch out for flying pins!

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The brass pin and spring that you see are contained within the rear plug unit (below the pin) and lock the Euro actuator ring in place. When you disassemble the lock, most of the parts will just fall out and the spring will send the pin flying, so watch out for that!

Let’s take a look at the back of the EVVA MCS’s plug, then...

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Interesting! Unlike the DOM Diamant, the EVVA MCS has a horizontal slot cut in as well as the usual vertical one for the keyway. This is important because the way that the locking cylinder / actuator works inside the Rotalok is that the shackle is locked then the actuator is lined up horizontally, and unlocked in the vertical position. Since the key can only be removed from the cylinder when it’s in the vertical position, this means that a cylinder with only a vertical slot cannot work with the Rotalok bodies. But will this cylinder work with either of the Rotalok bodies? Well, with the flat key (as opposed to the Diamant’s round, centre-aligned key) and horizontal slot in the back of the plug, it sure looks hopeful – let’ move on and see what we find!

First, I needed to re-strip the Rotaloks as I’d re-assembled them between “part one” and “part two”...

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We’ll start by popping the EVVA into my ‘old’ (first bought) Rotalok, the all-silver body one:

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Looks pretty good – maybe even a bit TOO tall, and the extra height of the front of the plug should help it clear the annoying Euro-shape-less cutout in this lock’s bottom plate.

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With the bottom plate in place, it seemed mostly working, if a bit tight... But something is wrong! No matter how much I turn the key and line the slot at the back of the cylinder up with the actuator, ir has a lot of trouble getting the actuator to turn...

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Ah, that’s why. The width of the horizontal slot on the rear of the MCS’s plug is too narrow for the actuator to fit. D’oh! Let’s quickly move on and test it in the other Rotalok...

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With the bottom plate on, the cylinder is WAY too low – probably at least 5mm, and putting the key in and pulling up causes the cylinder to massively move around inside the body:

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Why aren’t I attaching the cam interface that comes with this lock, you might be asking? Especially since it’s clearly meant to be there and the height of the cut-out in the body takes this into account. Well, for the same reason I didn’t use it when testing the DOM Diamant:

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It’s just totally the wrong shape and size. Sure, I could file it to fit – MAYBE, but it may still not work, and then I’ll have buggered up the only working cam interface that I have for the currently only-working cylinder I have for this lock!

Also, because at the base of the lock the actuator is the same, it faces the same problems as the other Rotalok:

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Foiled again! But hey, maybe if we just filed that horizontal slot out a little more...

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... Maybe it’ll mate with the Actuator....

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Success! Well, partially. The massive gap problem with the black-trimmed Rotalok means I can only get this to work in the old Rota. Additionally, there’s still a bit of a gap around the edges of the cylinder:

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Additionally, the cylinder with its long front is actually a little TOO long, and now screwing the two main bottom plate screws in too far causes the bottom plate to jam up against the front (keyway) end of the cylinder, causing it to bind up and not turn. However, with a generous application of thread-lock and a gentle and minimal screwing in...

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Awesome! So now my older Rota is finally working a cylinder more deserving of its station – the EVVA MCS. Now I just need to find something that works for the other Rotalok...

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I may have my eye on a certain 3KS... Time and budget will tell, though!

Thanks for reading along and I hope you’re enjoying the continued trials and tribulations that is Rotalok!
<<

LocksportSouth

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Post Thu May 19, 2016 5:08 pm

Re: LocksportSouth's Stash

So, I received this nice American Lock the other day:

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Pretty cool, pretty cool.

....

But this ain’t no ordinary American Lock ;)

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Juicy! It’s an awesome cutaway from the excellent L0ckcr4ck3r, who probably should be doing these companies’ official salesman cutaways considering the excellent quality of his work! Let’s take a closer look:

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I love the bevelled edge surrounding the cutout – it stops the edges from being sharp and just looks nice in general – it’s a nice touch that really adds something :). These cutaways are all totally functional – you can operate it like a regular lock, which means that as well as display purposes you can use these to demonstrate to non-lock-types how a lock works.

Here we can see the workings of the shackle, cam and ball bearings, and due to the cylinder also being cut away we can see the inner workings of that too. And even the “Series” stamp has been retained (at the slight cost of seeing how the cylinder connects to, and interacts with, the cylinder – probably necessary in any case to stop all the parts falling out!)

Here’s the keys:

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They come with a custom-etched key tag, which is a lovely touch :).
Other side:

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Shot of inserting the key – note how the pins are all over the place as the bitting doesn’t line up – I can’t think of a better way to explain the concept of the shear line to people! Love those serrated pins and serrated spools too, they look really nice.

Key fully inserted and lock at shear:

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Turning the plug – you can see the ends of the pins! Very cool:

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Unlocked:

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Note how the previously visible BB cutouts in the actuator are now turned to the side to allow the BBs in, so the shackle can be removed.

Awesome lock!

But, we’re not done yet ;)

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It’s an American Lock AL50

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And it’s a wafer lock! Pretty cool, I’ve not seen one in padlock form before so getting my head around its operation is an ongoing process :D

Wafer keyway:

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Keys & Key tag:

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Gotta love that key tag :D.

Here’s the lock with the key inserted:

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And unlocked:

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I’m still unpicking the mechanism but it’s very cool to watch it operate. I love how both of the locks have different cutout designs and “window” shapes – it makes each unique and lets you see all the important parts with ease whilst still maintaining a functional lock.

Unfortunately I don’t really have a space on my lock board for these or some other stuff like my Medeco deadbolt or safe deposit lock, so I’m looking into getting a display cabinet in the future for these sorts of things. Watch this space!

My big thanks to L0ckcr4ck3r for these cutaways and I very much look forward to seeing what you come out with in the future! And thank you to all my readers, I hope you’ve found this an interesting update!
<<

Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Sat May 21, 2016 4:12 am

Re: LocksportSouth's Stash

Really enjoyed your previous write-up on that dual custody Yale deposit lock!
What a beautiful piece. Wonderful explanations and photos. Thanks!
Did you clean it up? It looks to be in really good condition.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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LocksportSouth

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Post Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:42 pm

Re: LocksportSouth's Stash

There’s a few locks that I’d like to get to round out my S&G collection, but these few – such as the original 8077 and the rarer prototypes – are proving much harder to get hold of! I already have an 831-B-M-1 but my interest was certainly piqued when I saw an 831B show up on eBay a couple of weeks back. Unfortunately the photos weren’t great and the seller was less than helpful, but I decided to take the plunge and see what came of it, trusting eBay’s reliable returns policies to take care of the rest if it were a scam. Luckily my risk-taking ventures were rewarded!

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Behold – one Sargent and Greenleaf 831B :).
The 831B is very similar to the B-M-1 model, except that, as you can see, the B has a chain loop (on the top left hand side in this photo) whereas the BM1 does not. There are actually a couple of other differences which I’ll talk about later.

This example is a little beat up, kinda grimy with tape residue all over the body and the keys feel like they’ve been dragged through a tar pit backwards but we’ll soon get that cleaned up! Let’s take a look...

Here’s the keys:

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This lock didn’t come with the original square bow control key unfortunately, just the two operators keys, however one key has already been filed down to act as control – saves me some hassle!:

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Notice the back-tab and the shoulder missing from the one on the right? That makes it control :).
Interestingly the bow does have a different shape and “CONTROL” stamped into it along with the usual Medeco stuff – I assume this was done post-factory but could it be possible that this core is actually only supplied with two keys, and this is how it comes from the factory? Seems unlikely but anything is possible I guess!

A few more shots of the body. Front/side:

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Disassembly side:

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Chain loop side:

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Back (or front?):

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The engraving is very faint, but it does read 831B, and 1976 :)

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Bottom (very similar to the BM1):

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Top/shackle:

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Unlocked:

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Interestingly, this one is not key retaining. After unlocking the shackle I fiddled with the key and it turns out that it can be removed:

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Note that whilst you can return from regular unlock to locked position with the key and remove it, you can’t continue turning the control key to the disassembly position without first closing the lock. And, being (Not actually, but similar to) ball-bearing based and using the same locking mechanism as the BM1, you can’t snap-close the shackle – it must be unlocked again in order to close the shackle and lock the lock.

Disassembling the lock (same method as the BM1 – rotate the control key counter-clockwise and then slide the side plate out):

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Interestingly, whilst the locking bar works in much the same way as the BM1, you can’t drop the bar out in the control position – you first have to rotate the shackle back and close it, then turn the key to unlock position, you can then unlock the shackle and return the key to the locked position and remove it before shaking the locking bar and cylinder loose. Since the lock makes use of the non-key-retaining aspect as part of the disassembly procedure, and the military standards call for key-retaining, I assume this is why the mechanism was changed for the BM1 (presumable M being for Military, maybe the regular B was just for government use?).

All the basic bits:

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Very similar to the BM1.
Looking down inside the body:

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Here’s the disassembly plate – same mechanism as the BM1:

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The large round hole is where the closing part of the shackle goes. The spring-loaded steel plunger acts as a kind of catch for the back part of the shackle to help keep the shackle in, and the notched D shape cutout on the right hand edge (where the bolt passes through) is shaped such to hold it in place in the locked or unlocked positions (corresponding locking bar nub situated directly adjacent to the tip of the D shape or around the bottom area, respectively) and allow it to slide free in the control position (said nub positioned adjacent to the cutout in the D shape).

Here’s the locking pole – aforementioned nub can be seen on the top near the right hand side:

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From the side:

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And the bottom:

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If you’ve read my BM1 breakdown you’ll know that this object interestingly acts as both the actuator for the cylinder and the locking pole. The back of the cylinder slots into that round cutout with the squared shape of the back also fitting into the channel between the two “walls” on this bar, allowing it to be turned by rotating the key. Both ends of the bar slot into the ball-bearing shaped cutouts in the shackle and hold it locked, rather than using BBs.

Astute readers will notice that this bar is quite different from the BM1’s locking bar, being much more rounded, longer/thinner looking and generally not as strong seeming – maybe hence the improvements in the BM1. Here’s a shot of my BM1’s locking pole for reference:

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And here’s the cylinder. Brass, not green Teflon so we know that it’s an older generation – Classic I believe (the pins will also tell us later!)

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I just want to re-iterate that everything is here is –really- grimy. Touching a part even slightly leaves grimy black stuff all over my fingers. Time to get this sucker cleaned up!

Front of the cylinder:

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Back:

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Disassembling the cylinder – C-clip:

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Plug:

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We can see that the two notches in the pins are at roughly 90° degree angles from each other rather than directly across – IIRC this does indeed mean that these are classic Medeco pins, rather than Biaxial or M3. I won’t go into details about the operation of Medeco cylinders in this post as I’ve done so before in this thread :).

Key pins removed:

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Plug empty – look at that black stuff on my glove just from lightly touching the thing!

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Sidebar and springs removed:

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Driver pins and springs removed:

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Time to get everything cleaned up! First we dunk all the bigger parts – basically everything except the pins (which I don’t want to get mixed up) into GUNK overnight:

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And now to clean up those pins. I’ll be using WD40 and a bit of elbow grease – also a good opportunity to test out my new 3D printed pinning trays which I got from a forum member – awesome stuff!

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This is the blue one (it’s much darker than it looks in the photos), I also have a black, white and orange one that I’ll be showing as and when I get cores to test it with!

To clean the pins I’m taking them one stack at a time and putting them into the lid of a small plastic box to clean off with WD40. I really need to find some kind of really tiny boxes or tray of waterproof and really small division boxes to store all the pins in with WD-40! Anyone have any ideas?

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I’m currently using Really Useful Boxes but I’m finding that GUNK warps the plastic!

All the pins cleaned up and ready to go:

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And now we wait until the GUNK has done its job!
....

One day later and the ‘bits’ are looking much cleaner – this time I did give them a preliminary dunk n wipe off the night before, and the body did still need a bit of scrubbing and some light sandpapering to clear off the glue residue and some paint – but all is well! Here’s the parts cleaned off in the pinning tray along with the clean pins:

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Body front post cleaning:

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Body back:

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The lettering is much more visible now!

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The body does suffer from a few scratches and scrapes...

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And this odd tape mark that I can’t seem to remove...

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But overall is looking good! I re-assembled the cylinder and lubed with Tri-flow as usual, and gave the shackle and locking pole some lithium grease paste. Re-assembled and unlocked:

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Thankfully the locking pole didn’t give as much grief as some of those 826s!

I’ve mounted the lock on my lock board next to the 831-B-M-1. Also, as the space to the left of that (and to the right of the 826D) is currently blank, and since it’s destined for an 831A that I’m likely to source on the wrong side of never, I’ve decided to mount one of my spare 826Cs in there for now. So it looks much neater :). I’ll try and get a photo of that soon!

Thanks for reading!
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LocksportSouth

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Post Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:46 pm

Re: LocksportSouth's Stash

Oldfast wrote:Really enjoyed your previous write-up on that dual custody Yale deposit lock!
What a beautiful piece. Wonderful explanations and photos. Thanks!
Did you clean it up? It looks to be in really good condition.


Sorry for the slow reply, I'm not currently receiving email notifications so I missed this.

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed reading - working out the mechanism (and then finding a way to describe its operation) was a bit of an ordeal but a lot of fun at the same time!
I can't remember if I posted anything about the cleanup, but yeah - it got my usual GUNK and WD40 treatment, manually cleaned off each pin as well as the plugs and individual operating parts and re-lubed and re-assembled. It's all looking and working nice and new now :). I'm hoping to get a display cabinet for things like this that can't really be mounted on my normal board so hopefully will have some nice new photos of it properly lit and on display, fingers crossed!
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LocksportSouth

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Post Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:48 pm

Re: LocksportSouth's Stash

Today I have something really rather special to show you – and yes, I realise that I often say that! That’s because I seem to specialise in really rather special locks :). In any case:

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What we have here are a couple of Bramah padlocks – brand new from the factory – specifically the Bramah BP17 Medium Range padlocks. There’s one short shackle, and one long shackle.

I’ve had my eye on these for a while now, ever since I saw one being sold elsewhere and missed out on the opportunity. I contacted Bramah directly, who thankfully were happy to work with me to produce two of these lovely padlocks. If you wish to get hold of some yourself, I suggest that you contact Bramah Directly – I spoke (via email) to a lovely chap called Pawel Rossa and I’m sure he’d be happy to work with you too, if you’d like one of these lovely padlocks.

Bramah padlocks have an interesting history, and are older than you might expect – the locks were designed by Joseph Bramah, for whom the company is named, back in 1784. I’m going to quote the next bit directly from Wikipedia rather than attempting to paraphrase, but you’ll find more details about this interesting story in good lock books such as Graham Pulford’s excellent “High-Security Mechanical Locks” (pages 558-560).

Wikipedia wrote: The locks produced by his company were famed for their resistance to lock picking and tampering, and the company famously had a "Challenge Lock" displayed in the window of their London shop from 1790, mounted on a board containing the inscription:

The artist who can make an instrument that will pick or open this lock shall receive 200 guineas the moment it is produced.

The challenge stood for over 67 years until, at the Great Exhibition of 1851, the American locksmith Alfred Charles Hobbs was able to open the lock and, following some argument about the circumstances under which he had opened it, was awarded the prize. Hobbs' attempt required about 51 hours, spread over 16 days. [Note that Pulford's book mentions that this was over 44, not 51, hours.]


You’ve got to love the faith that this guy had in his product. Here’s a quote from Bramah’s 1785 dissertation, as quoted in Pulford’s book:

Joseph Bramah wrote:I have contrived a security, which no instrument but its proper key can reach; and which may be so applied, as not only to defy the art and ingenuity of the most skilful workman, but to render the utmost force ineffectual, and thereby to secure what is most valued as well from the dishonest servants as from the midnight ruffian


Indeed, despite being produced well over 200 years ago the Bramah lock is still considered a high security lock even to this day, and takes much more skilled manipulation and specialist tools that a regular pin tumbler locks, although it appears that there are now tools built specifically to defeat the Bramah locks.

Not only do Bramah’s locks still provide excellent security, they do it with a style rarely found in today’s locks. From the unusual operation and keyway to the classy script font logo, Bramah padlocks genuinely feel like a solid, reliable and exquisite product. Of course, they are far from in infallible in both the security sense (despite a disagreement over whether the correct methods were used, Bramah’s challenge lock was picked in 1851 by American locksmith Alfred Charles Hobbs, as noted above) and in a reliability sense (the design of Bramah keys are known to collect pocket lint and dust which may clog up the locking mechanism. Printed on the card included with the package is the following snippet of advice):

Maintenance

Bramah locks and keys are of an extremely simple and trouble free design, and since 1784 have been manufactured with great precision, ensuring the ultimate in security. However your keys may not work the lock if they are damaged or dirty. To ensure cleanliness always use the dust cap provided and from time to time, clean the key by sliding a card across the bottom of each slot in turn.


Nevertheless, Bramah locks represent some of the more interesting locks out there today and especially with that storied history, I knew that I had to get hold of one (or more:)).

All that said, let’s continue with the unboxing!

After cutting open the top tape, here’s how we find the box:

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These cards contain the maintenance and security information, as well as your lock’s key codes.

Here’s a front and back example of the cards:

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Since I have two locks, I have two cards. The key number seems not to be a particularly risky thing to give out since it’s stamped on both the keys and lock body so I’ve left it unblurred.

Keys and locks removed from the packaging:

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The first thing to strike you is, obviously, the unusual keys. They look almost like lever lock keys but not quite; kinda-of like tubular keys but again, not quite. The design of them is a mix of utilitarian (you can totally imagine these being forged in a small room-sized blacksmith’s shop) and art with that script logo design. Let’s take a closer look:

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Stamped into the key bow is “Joseph Bramah” “Regd Trade Mark”. The other side of the key is stamped with the key number.
Let’s take a look at the end of a key:

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Similar-looking to a tubular lock, and I believe that the operation is somewhat similar. You can see the protruding lug on the outside of the central shaft, which aligns the key correctly in the keyway when inserting it, and may aid in the rotation of the cylinder (I’m unsure of the specifics as I’m unable to gut these). The bitting itself is cut into the end of the shaft and consists of seven protruding arms of identical height, with seven variable-height gaps inbetween them. You can see how the heights of the cuts vary in the second photo above.

Whilst I don’t fully understand the operation of this lock (If you’re reading along with Pulford’s book at home, refer to pages 205-207), it seems that essentially the key protrusions will push the central ring down entirely, whilst the cuts in the key will depress each slider to a specific depth. The sliders each have a notch in them further down, which interacts with a slotted ring inserted halfway down the plug. When a slider is depressed to the correct depth by the cut in the key, the notch in the slider will allow the slotted ring to fit in (much like a sidebar) which in turn will allow the slotted ring to fully insert, allowing the plug to be turned.

Here’s a diagram that I found on Google Image search which may help to explain:

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See also my photo of the keyway, showing the central ring perforated with the sliders:

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With operation out of the way, let’s get back to the photos!

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I’ve shown you this photo at the start as an intro but it’s probably the best pic I have of these together, so I repeat it here. Upon unwrapping the bubble wrap surrounding these locks I’m hit with a wave of oil-smell – the entire outer surface of these locks (body and shackle) was coated in a fine, light oil. I assume this is left over from the internal lubrication so I’ve wiped them clean with a soft cloth. Another thing that struck me is just how small these are – I’m not sure how big I was expecting them to be (maybe 8-10cm long and about the same high?) but these are actually quite a bit smaller – the short shackle (BP17 Medium Range Short Shackle) one measures 55mm end-to-end and 65mm bottom-of-lock to top-of-shackle, and the long shackle (BP17 Medium Range Long Shackle) one is the same width but about 75mm tall. Here’s a shot of them next to my hand for reference:

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The shackles measure about 9mm too, and aren’t marked as being hardened or stainless steel, although they might be. I don’t get the impression that these locks are necessarily for high security use – I wouldn’t, for example, use one on a radar tower or even a big shop’s external stockroom door leading out onto the street. On the other hand, these aren’t cheap locks at just under £110 plus VAT (20%) a pop – so you won’t be using it on your shed or to lock up your rusty old bicycle. So, who are these for? Part of me wants to laugh and say “collectors” – and that has to be a big part of it, given their history and mechanism. But I can see these locks in use in places that need medium security, high pick resistance and high class – similar to the S&G 8077 and 8088 padlocks but more “fancy”. Temporary doors or exhibit locks in museums, displayed with pride in your home or workplace on a high-visibility, low-value object – anywhere where you want to add both an interesting discussion piece and some good security at the same time. All in my opinion, of course.

Here’s the short shackle and long shackle BP17 together, for height reference:

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The specifications state that the short shackle lock is 24mm wide by 15.5mm high, and that the long shackle lock is 24mm wide by 27.5mm high – these appear to be the inside-shackle measurements taken at the widest points. For fun, I also measured the key and keyway – the keyway is about 6mm wide in the “round bit” whilst length (including the alignment tail) is about 10mm. The key is 58mm long (including the bow), and approx 38mm long without the bow, and is, predictably, about 6mm wide. The longest cut in the keys that I have is about 6mm – I believe that there are 8 bitting depths (according to Pulford’s book) times seven sliders/wafers, meaning just over 2 million possible differs (MACS doesn’t apply to these locks since there’s no up/down motion between the key bittings as with a pin tumbler, although apparently using lots of deep cuts can weaken the key).

Let’s take a look around an individual lock now. We’ll use the short shackle version but they’re essentially identical except for the shackle. Front:

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You have to love that design – sleek, rounded body, beautiful script logo, chamfered edges at the ends of the cylinder – just gorgeous.

The keyway again:

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On the right, you can see the end of the shackle closed and in the locked position. This is actually the “hinge” end, i.e. the end that does not come out of the body. The equal looking round plug on the left doesn’t actually appear to be part of the shackle though, as when you unlock he lock and undo the shackle this plus stays in place and can be seen down the shackle hole from the top. I believe that you can somehow remove this plug and it’s how the lock is disassembled, but I’m not sure if I’m brave enough to try that!

Here’s a shot of the bottom with the lock unlocked:

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As mentioned, the shackle side on the right does not come out. On the left, that’s where the shackle exists. Here’s a shot of inside the lock with the shackle removed:

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You can see the ball bearing for locking at the top of the hole, and the reverse end of the bottom plug at the bottom of the hole.

Another shot of the front:

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Left hand side (with the key number stamped in):

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Right hand side (plain):

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It seems that the locks are made from empty cylinder tubes that are filled with parts and then have their ends capped off.

Reverse side of the lock (plain):

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Correct key inserted and turned – unlocked:

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Unlocking the lock requires a fair amount of force, where you have to push the key deeply into the lock against spring tension, and then rotate the key at the apex of its insertion depth. If you insert the incorrect key (I ordered both of these locks not keyed alike so that I could test stuff like this), it will insert to the full depth but will not rotate, aside from a small amount of play.

Upon unlocking the lock, you can lift and rotate the shackle in the normal fashion:

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These are ball-bearing locked locks and thus are not vulnerable to shimming and similar attacks. Note also the cut-out notch on the back of the shackle near the body? I assume that’s to do with keeping the shackle in place.

Both of the locks together, keys inserted, long shackle BP17 open:

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Both locks open:

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I’ll admit that I did pop the lock in a vice and, using a pretty meaty pin punch, spent a while trying to knock that bottom plug out. However it really does not want to shift and I don’t want to use too much force for fear of breaking the lock or pushing out something which won’t go back in again, so a breakdown / disassembly / gutting won’t be forthcoming in this update at least. But, you know, I tried! That’s what counts :D.

So, there you have it! The Bramah padlocks, BP17 Medium Range long and short shackle. Of course, Bramah does lots of other locks as well including smaller chest and drawer locks, right up to full size door locks such as mortise, latches and safe locks so there’s a good range of security levels there although AFAIK they all use this same locking mechanism, so take my security assessments with a pinch of salt. That said, this has to be one of my favourite (sets of) locks and I look forward to finding a good home for it somewhere on my lock board soon :).
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jasminelognnes

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Post Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:24 pm

Re: LocksportSouth's Stash

Which of the different GUNK types did you use for cleaning the S&G lock?

Why did you use WD-40 for the pins and not Gunk?
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LocksportSouth

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Post Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:59 pm

Re: LocksportSouth's Stash

jasminelognnes wrote:Which of the different GUNK types did you use for cleaning the S&G lock?

Why did you use WD-40 for the pins and not Gunk?


I didn't even know there were different types to be honest! Just the standard one in the 1L cans - like This one.

As for why WD40 and now Gunk - eh, I dunno really. Force of habit. I always used to use WD-40 for cleaning stuff like most people, and I've never really had any knowledge or exposure to hardware/DIY/cleaning/oiling products etc before I got into locks. I did some research and also asked a question or two about the best types of cleaning solution and the best lubes - no-one really agrees on anything and answers are always quite varied so I just kinda randomly picked some things from suggestions that had more than one person saying the same thing and it's worked ok so far. My plan was to use Gunk and WD-40 jointly for a while and try to decide which is best but I could never really narrow it down so I just tend to use the Gunk for lock parts as it's outside in the garage and gives off a lot of fumes and doesn't have a way to apply small parts at a time, whereas I tend to clean the pins inside at my desk so I use WD-40 because it has a precision spray applicator and don't give off at many fumes so is ok to use in a closed off inside environment. Other than that, no real reason really :).
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jasminelognnes

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Post Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:25 pm

Re: LocksportSouth's Stash

Thanks a lot for the details and the link. I will buy such for sure =)

What do you use for rust removing? There are many on YouTube that claim regular house vinegar works perfectly, but I don't know for locks?

Have you tried to use Gunk and/or WD-40 on chrome plated locks or shackles? I.e. will it damage the chrome?
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LocksportSouth

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Post Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:33 pm

Re: LocksportSouth's Stash

jasminelognnes wrote:Thanks a lot for the details and the link. I will buy such for sure =)

What do you use for rust removing? There are many on YouTube that claim regular house vinegar works perfectly, but I don't know for locks?

Have you tried to use Gunk and/or WD-40 on chrome plated locks or shackles? I.e. will it damage the chrome?



No problem :).
I haven't really tried rust removing for lack of knowing what to try. I did recently however pick up some "Jenolite" and tested it on a rusty S&G core (it removed the rust but also stripped off the silvery outer coating, revealing the brass core underneath). I also tested it on another lock, I forget which, which had some silvery-greyish staining which looked kinda like weird rust - it didn't help with that one at all and stained the metal pink-ish, which didn't come off after a soak in Gunk :(.

I've not had Gunk or WD-40 damage the finish on any lock that I've used it on so far, but it will strip the patina off of old locks I'd imagine - I used it to clean up the S&G 831B recently and it did a great job of cleaning the body, but also exposed a long, straight tape-looking mark on one side that I was unable to remove. Gunk seems more "harsh", for lack of a better word, than WD-40. I'd say if unsure use WD-40 as it seems "safer", but I've never had a problem with Gunk. Jenolite works well on "real" rust (brown actual rust, not the greyish discolouration you get sometimes - technical terms, I know!) but it *WILL* strip off outer coatings such as chrome finish and probably patina as well.
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LocksportSouth

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Post Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:02 am

Re: LocksportSouth's Stash

Hi, and thanks for stopping by once again! I've had this lock for a week or so now but haven't had the time to make a post. Here we go!

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So, it's an Abus padlock - what's so special, you ask?

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It's another awesome L0ckcr4ck3r cutaway! This one was bought "second hand" from an existing owner, but it's a L0ckcr4ck3r original - and it shows in the quality! Let's take a closer look.

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I love how much material was able to be taken away from the body and it still be fully functional - you won't find any jamming pins or falling-out parts here! According to my seller, this is actually an early revision (Number 002, as you can see from the key tag) and this is actually supposedly a rougher prototype but to me it looks seriously well done, I'd not say there's anything in this one that needs improving really!

As you can see, it also comes with the awesome custom key tags:

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Number 002! Very cool. Let's take another look at the body:

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As far as I can tell, all possible moving parts are exposed and working as intended. Let's run through the opening process:

Pins in locked position:

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Key partially inserted:

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Key fully inserted, pins at shear:

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Actuator and locking BBs in locked position:

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...And in open position:

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Plug rotated, retaining the keypins:

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Unlocked:

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As expected from my previous cutaways from L0ckcr4ck3r, we're looking at some seriously nice work here - high functionality, high visibility of the internals, and excellent fit and finish to boot. Sadly I still don't have a display cabinet for these and some of the other stuff that I'm building up - will have to correct that soonish!

Thanks for reading :).
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LocksportSouth

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Post Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:40 pm

Re: LocksportSouth's Stash

I've had my eye on this particular lock for a while, but was waiting to find the best time to go for it. Such a time presented itself, and thus:

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A new Chubb! I hadn’t planned to buy any more Chubbs, mostly because there’s not much out there anymore. When I was a kid, Chubb was a pretty big name here in the UK, but recently I’ve not really found many Chubbs around. I did get those two lever locks, the Battleship and the Cruiser, but I thought that I’d reached the end of high security Chubb locks, so it’s with delight that I’ve recently picked up two new ones – this one and another one yet to arrive.

Even more exciting, this one comes in its original retail clamshell packaging! And of course it has the proper “Chubb” branding – Chubb have since been bought over by Union, and whilst it’s possible to get many Union branded locks that are functionally identical, I’m much more keen to pick up the original Chubb ones, since it’s a name and brand style that I recognise from when I was young.

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It makes me want to not even take it out of the packaging as a “collectible”... But that’d be silly :).

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After some struggling (I don’t know how old this lock is, but the packaging plastic seems to have degraded to a very hard and brittle plastic that was nigh-impossible to cut and tended to shatter and splinter off at the slightest provocation!), I managed to free the padlock from its packaging:

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Lovely! Let’s take a look at the key:

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6 pin – I’m not sure whether the cylinder uses security pins, but we’ll soon find out hopefully!

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I love the original Chubb brand badge on the front:

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The keyway is guarded by a rotating, spring-loaded shutter, I assume to keep rain (and picking tools!) out:

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Levering the slot back – it doesn’t go far:

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Inserting the key can be a bit tricky:

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Unlocked:

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Shackle open:

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Unfortunately the lube seems to have rusted up the insides somewhere inside:

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Hopefully we can get it open and clean it out! Here’s the first of the two retaining screws – it’s an odd one, with a hole down the middle to allow rain to drain through:

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The back of the shackle is totally flat:

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Here’s the screw removed from the internal shackle hole:

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Shackle hole sans screw:

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Ah, it seems that there’s a roll pin to drive out in order to remove the shackle, like Ingersolls:

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No problem, I’ll just drive it out with a pin punch, and...... Oh.

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Yeah, the roll pin was driven into a hole with no way of exiting. I tried everything to remove this, from using a threaded bradwl and soldering hook to trying to pull it out, trying to screw screws into the pin to pull on it, and using my dremal to attempt to drive in a threaded drill bit thingy, which snapped off inside:

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And finally trying to drill it, which didn’t manage to even slightly cut into or break the roll pin, other than to scratch up the surface:

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So, after a couple of hours of trying things, I’m officially out of tools and ideas – which means that I can’t strip this lock any further. A shame, as it seems quite rusty inside and could really do with a clean out. I don’t want to soak it in WD40 or Gunk for fear of damaging the surface (and of course being unable to re-lube it properly, so I guess I’ll have to cut the post short here. If anyone has any ideas how to get this thing out – I’m all ears! Otherwise, enjoy the post and thanks for reading :).
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GWiens2001

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Post Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:33 pm

Re: LocksportSouth's Stash

I remove roll pins at work using either small extractors or small, sharp drill bits. The small, sharp drill bits can bite into the inner edge of the roll pin. When the roll pin starts to turn, you can keep the drill spinning (slowly), and slowly pull the pin out. Or you can drill out the roll pin and replace it.

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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LocksportSouth

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Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:51 am

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Post Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:39 pm

Re: LocksportSouth's Stash

GWiens2001 wrote:I remove roll pins at work using either small extractors or small, sharp drill bits. The small, sharp drill bits can bite into the inner edge of the roll pin. When the roll pin starts to turn, you can keep the drill spinning (slowly), and slowly pull the pin out. Or you can drill out the roll pin and replace it.

Gordon


Cool, thanks for the tip! I just ordered a couple of small carbide bits to get through the weak tool steel trapped inside the roll pin, then was planning to drill out the pin itself but will give your trick a shot too. Thanks again!
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