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Champion 6 lever

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GWiens2001

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Post Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:48 am

Re: Champion 6 lever

I love it! And that cutaway is 10 kinds of cool! I want!

Gordon
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femurat

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Post Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:34 am

Re: Champion 6 lever

Great idea using allen wrenches, you need to push 6 levers and you have 6 positions for the handles. Perfect!

Cheers :)
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Oldfast

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Post Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:42 am

Re: Champion 6 lever

barbarian & oldbiscuit... you've given some wonderful insight into a lock I wasn't real sure about. Thank you!
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elbowmacaroni

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Post Wed Jan 09, 2013 3:57 pm

Re: Champion 6 lever

Well, this was a good thread to necro... I totally forgot about this one and it's a damn good write up on the breakdown of one of these. I am stickying this!
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Lauren

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Post Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:54 pm

Re: Champion 6 lever

I am always refining my own processes for decoding these "Champion" padlocks. There are two techniques for probing the gates. The first one involves inserting the probe between two levers, but sometimes there is not enough space between levers to do so, even with the smallest of wires. The second technique, as shown in this thread, involves inserting the probe on top of a neighboring lever and rotating it into the gate. However, I believe the information originally shown in this thread is flawed and somewhat misleading, even though the basic fundamentals for decoding were well described by the author. The problem is in the third picture showing the second lever being probed which translated into a .165 depth cut. This picture must have been taken with the fence removed. In reality, there is not enough lever displacement capability to expose this gate before bottoming out. This issue usually occurs with all depth cuts greater than .105 inch. When decoding "Champion" padlocks, the easier locks are always the ones with depth cuts less than .105 inch. I recently was exposed to this problem on one of my project locks, the one without the pin above the letter "H".
Last edited by Lauren on Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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escher7

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Post Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:45 am

Re: Champion 6 lever

Oldbiscuit:

Do you try the depths randomly or is there a system? My understanding is that the lock design prevents exerting tension so as to detect the gates.

Follow up:

Now that I think about it the actuator spring does push on the crank, although not enough to hold the other levers in place. However it may be enough to feel the gates on the levers. Since your probes hold the levers in place I guess that is why the pick works. Correct??
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oldbiscuit

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Post Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:31 am

Re: Champion 6 lever

Esher, actually the way I do it ,and it works 99% of the time for me is as follows. I loosen the two screws on my pick just enough that the allen wrenchescan be pushed with a light pressure, but will stay in place if you back off the pushing pressure. I kind of match the tension to push the allen wrenches to the pressure it takes to push in the levers in the lock. Next I line up the pins equally across the bottom of the tool. Next I insert it in and pushgently while pulling up on the shackle. I kind of wiggle the tool a little in the lock and usually it will unlock. Once it's unlocked and opened, I reset the pick in the lock,make sure each pin is in till it stops, then I tighten the two screws. I relock the padlock and reinsert the pick and it will open right up. Did this make sense??
"It never fails - as soon as I find the key to success, somebody changes the lock!"
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Lauren

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Post Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:22 am

Re: Champion 6 lever

I would like to see a video on that. I have yet to apply the ace pick principle successfully on any of my locks.
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oldbiscuit

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Post Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:41 am

Re: Champion 6 lever

I wish I had a video camera, but I can't justify the expense
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Lauren

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Post Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:26 am

Re: Champion 6 lever

I see that another popular web site which promotes the "DIX PIX" claims the ability to pick these locks in the same manner. I can see the tool working for locks with very shallow depth cut differences, but not many pancake locks made by "MILLER LOCK COMPANY" respond to shackle tension (wait a minute....I can't think of any). I have opened only two locks via shackle tension: EXCElSIOR & YALE.

So, I wish someone would do a serious video of a "Champion" pancake padlock (more than one in same video would be more credible) with high-low depth cut variations of picking these locks with a "DIX PIX" or similar tool....I'll believe it when I see it. These locks have gate cuts at .015". Even the slightest offset, and these locks will not open.
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escher7

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Post Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:05 am

Re: Champion 6 lever

Oldbiscuit:

So the method you are using is essentially the same as with a tubular pick. That would be consistent with the fact that there is tension against the levers - just not enough to hold the levers in place. Your device is responding to that pressure which is different for each lever, hence the difference in depth of each individual pick.

There is some question as to whether pulling on the shackle increases the pressure against the levers, due to the design. The following picture (from Graham Pulford's Encyclopedia) shows the unique design of the locking bar that isolates that pressure. As Pulford says:

"The clever aspect of this lock is that the actuator lever is the only one through which force can be applied to the stump of the crank. It is not known beforehand whichof the levers is the actuator: it could be any one of them. Furthermore, the force on the crank is caused by only one lever spring, which is considerably less than the force required to maintain the other five levers at the correct depths to align their gates. Thus, all levers must be moved to the correct depths at once, confounding a would-be lockpicker."(pp 381)

1. Shows the single spring of one of the levers putting pressure on the crank.
2. Shows the elbow of the crank stopping the shackle, and why pressure on the shackle would not effect the levers.
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Lauren

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Post Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:21 am

Re: Champion 6 lever

Thank You....Enough said.
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MrWizard

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Post Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:18 am

Re: Champion 6 lever

I can also say I have never been able to apply shackle pressure and pick any Champion pancake lock. I have 7 pancake locks and using Laurens method of probing the levers is the only way I found it possible to open and manufacture keys to each one of them. There is only 3 pancake locks I have been able to open applying shackle pressure and those are Excelsior, Yale and Franklin.

I tried the method of using a single wire probe and marking it the said distance required then using the bottom of the case and measuring from there to the mark on the probe it doesn't work. Using 2 wire probe and making a mini caliper to measure the actual distance from the bottom of the lever to the gate is the only real way to get the true depth works perfect. I was at the end of hope until I talked with Lauren about how this really done as the method on another site with the Dix Pix just will not work. He was spot on with his method after I understood what to do I had the 2 problem champions open in less than and hour. And keys made for them in the same day. :mrgreen:

Richard
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Lauren

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Post Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:11 am

Re: Champion 6 lever

Richard, I finally got my High Shackle "Champion". It was the hardest lock I ever had to decode. Only 3 levers would window the gates. Two of the remaining 3 levers would stick at the same depth when depressed with a needle tool. This suggested the levers would decode to the same depth cut. I had to play for hours setting my tool to various increments. It was like trying to solve a math problem with two unknowns ( 0, .045, .015, x, x, y). Sometimes levers will catch the fence, but this is not the true depth. There seems to be a constant that one can add to get the true depth cut. The theory still needs more test locks. Anyway, as I mentioned earlier, this project lock defies the norm for decoding procedures. I still need to refine a process for determining obscured gates when it occurs. The problem may only exist with locks prior to 1903. Further research is needed.
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escher7

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Post Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:30 pm

Re: Champion 6 lever

But since there is some pressure on the levers, albeit just from the one spring, isn't it possible to feel that first gate on the "thickest" lever? It is true that the pressure would not hold it in place, but if you found the first gate by trying all the levers and then used a pin setting on the "Dix Pix" to hold that first lever in place, you could go on to find the next gate and so on?? Or is the pressure from that one spring not enough to give feedback? I don't have one of the locks so I am just thinking theoretically.
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