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Godrej NAV-TAL 8 Levers

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femurat

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Post Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:38 pm

Godrej NAV-TAL 8 Levers

A couple years ago I bought this big padlock as a souvenir. It had no key.
It was time to give it one. It's not easy to get a Godrej blank here, so I started by cutting a piece of brass to fit the keyway height and ward. Then with the aid of a sharpie, marked and made its throat cut.

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The first piece is not needed to operate the lock. It moves in the space between the lock shell and the actual locking mechanism. When I started I didn't know there was no levers here so I left it long. If I make a copy of the key I may cut it out.
As the key turned CW it got marks by the levers rubbing against the key, indicating their positions. The padlock actually has 8 levers.

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I got this padlock in the open position. To close it I need the key. That's why I impressioned it while turning CCW and got the marks on the back of the key.

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The process is quite simple but takes time. Darken the blank with a sharpie, insert the key and gently turn it until it stops. Extract the key and look for marks at 45 degrees, on the edge of the key. If you can't see the marks insert the key again and try to turn one or two times, but not more otherwise you'll get marks everywhere.
File down where you see the marks. Repeat until it opens (closes in this case).

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After a while the key closed the padlock. And to my surprise couldn't open it again.
I had to refine its shape by finishing to impression it turning CW to get a key that worked both ways.
I understand the levers have an inclined or wider gate so when you close the padlock it's easier to align them with the gate, while if you open it you need to be more precise. Here is the finished key.

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I just need to shape the bow and drill a hole in it so I can put it in a key ring. It's nice to transform a carpet transition strip into a key.

Cheers :)
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Lauren

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Post Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:49 pm

Re: Godrej NAV-TAL 8 Levers

If I understood you correctly, you were able to impression your lock since it was unlocked. Could you attack the key making process had the lock been locked instead?
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femurat

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Post Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:10 pm

Re: Godrej NAV-TAL 8 Levers

In theory I'm able to impression closed locks. This time it was not possible from the start because to close the lock a key is needed, so I had to impression it turning CCW. Once the lock was closed I finished impressioning it CW to be able to turn the key. I had to file down almost all positions to make it work. So the answer, in theory, is yes. I was able to get marks and impression the key to open the lock.

In practice I haven't tried this lock with a blank, but with an already started key. I may prepare another blank and see if I get good marks from the beginning, with the lock closed. I'll let you know when I try.

Cheers :)
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Lauren

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Post Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:17 pm

Re: Godrej NAV-TAL 8 Levers

Do the edges of the tumbler stack (as seen through the key way) look flush to each other when the shackle is closed, or are they staggered? This makes a difference to one's ability to impression, based on internal locking design.
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femurat

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Post Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:20 pm

Re: Godrej NAV-TAL 8 Levers

The levers were free to move with the lock open. So they're not locked in place.
I haven't seen them directly so I can't tell if they were flush or at different heights. I'll check it and let you know tomorrow.

Cheers :)
Pictures in my old posts are gone due to a policy change by my old hosting provider. I'm working on that.
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Lauren

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Post Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:28 pm

Re: Godrej NAV-TAL 8 Levers

Sounds great. If the levers are free to move with the lock open, I wonder if your lock is an interlocking lever design. With this type of lock, the levers directly lock the shackle and can been seen through the shackle hole.
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femurat

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Post Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:23 am

Re: Godrej NAV-TAL 8 Levers

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The shackle hole is closed, I can't see the levers. There's just the locking bolt that slides in and out when I turn the key. The above image shows the lock closed on the top and open on the bottom.

I prepared a new blank to impression the lock while closed. Then blackened it with my sharpie.

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Got a nice and clear first mark

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Filed it down a little and tried again. Looks like I was too shy since I got two more marks on the sides of the filed down area. And got a second lever mark. By comparing the key with the blank you can see the positions marking and the correct depth of the cuts. I'm not cheating, just showing you what lever is marking.



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Filed down the two positions and was ready to continue but was interrupted. I'll resume when I have some free time.

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Cheers :)
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Lauren

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Post Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:39 pm

Re: Godrej NAV-TAL 8 Levers

Ok...This lock is not interlocking. So it has an independent locking bolt. The bolt is most likely spring loaded, meaning it drops down when the gates of the lever stack become aligned with the correct key. If the key has its own bit used to actuate the bolt, then there is slightly more complexity to this lock. I have used impression to mark the locations of lever tumblers, but to mark a key for purposes of working bits tends to rest on lock design, particularly if the levers are at different heights when the shackle is closed. This type of lever stack is seen with Simmons Keen Kutter, for example. In contrast, if the lever stack surface are at equal heights of a locked shackle, with no driving bit on the key, then impression is worthless. The game changes, and the lock should be picked open and impression works best. If your lock has a driving bit to move a secondary component between the lever stack and the bolt, then impression might work if the fence is binding here. However, the soft brass key will most likely bend before you get significant results.
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Lauren

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Post Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:42 pm

Re: Godrej NAV-TAL 8 Levers

I forgot one other thing. Sometimes shackle tension will aid with impression as well, but the technique rest on lock design.
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femurat

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Post Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:15 pm

Re: Godrej NAV-TAL 8 Levers

If I understood how the lock works correctly, the tip of the key throws the bolt.

There's that sort of curtain that prevents me to see the levers so I can't confirm if they're at the same height or not.

I'll continue to try impression it open and if I succeed we'll know it's doable.

Cheers :)
Pictures in my old posts are gone due to a policy change by my old hosting provider. I'm working on that.
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Lauren

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Post Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:00 am

Re: Godrej NAV-TAL 8 Levers

What curtain? If you turn the key plug to the 11 o'clock position, can you read the lever tumbler surfaces? A separate fence between the bolt is going to make your job of impression a lot harder. Good luck in not breaking the key.

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