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tubular key cut

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huxleypig

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Post Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:47 pm

Re: tubular key cut

I got tubular locks that have no tang on the outside of them. That tang never drives the lock, it never exerts any pressure on anything, it just acts as a key retainer.

The inside tang is often used to drive the lock round but again, I have locks that do not use it at all (and picks) with no adverse reactions. Driving the lock round using the pins themselves should be fine so long as there is no significant tension required and if that is the case then there is a problem with things binding up.

The indexing thing I agree with though!
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GringoLocksmith

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Post Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:07 pm

Re: tubular key cut

I had a bike lock that I picked with a tubular pick and opened only halfway before pick slipped out. After that, the key wouldn't go in because it was out of position and I couldn't get the pick back in, either. I'm with Mr. Wizard on this one. If the bullet casing without the tang decides to give out mid-turn, you could be in trouble.
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huxleypig

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Post Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:29 pm

Re: tubular key cut

GringoLocksmith wrote:I had a bike lock that I picked with a tubular pick and opened only halfway before pick slipped out. After that, the key wouldn't go in because it was out of position and I couldn't get the pick back in, either. I'm with Mr. Wizard on this one. If the bullet casing without the tang decides to give out mid-turn, you could be in trouble.


All you had to do was shave off the tang. How come the pick wouldn't go back in?
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GringoLocksmith

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Post Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:38 pm

Re: tubular key cut

I don't know how the pick came out, given that it had a tang on it. But I know why it wouldn't go back in.
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huxleypig

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Post Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:39 pm

Re: tubular key cut

The pick itself had an outside tang?
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GringoLocksmith

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Post Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:56 pm

Re: tubular key cut

Well, now you're making me question myself on that. I remember it as having an outside tang, but I might be wrong. It was a Chinese pick purchased in Mexico.

The lock belonged to a customer who had lost the key and brought it into the shop. I screwed it up and weeks later the customer came back for it, key in hand. I suppose we could have shaved the tang off for him and told him to be careful not to pull it out mid-turn, but I think what actually happened was that someone talked him into buying a more expensive bike lock.
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MrWizard

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Post Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:41 am

Re: tubular key cut

If Ace lock didn't think the inside tang wasn't necessary for proper safe continuous operation of their tubular lock they wouldn't have wasted time building it into their design.

Sure many other manufactures decided to not incorporate it for one reason or another but they may have not understood the main reason it is there "to drive the lock not using the pins that can bend and be marred from sideways pressure. This is why I said not good to use a no tang super thin walled bullet shell for a lock meant to have a tang to drive the lock as with a heavy monetary switch lock with return spring or a tailpiece that binds because it is too tight as with many that have been installed and not adjusted to relieve that pressure.

Yes some cheap tubular picks may not have a tang but are also not designed to be used as a daily key on the same lock either. Picks with no inside tang is a horrible design as using it causes the pins to bind in the upper section and not just at the shear line which makes it harder to pick.

My point in saying using the 38 shell is good for show and tell but not for a lock in use by a consumer is it is thin walled and if not perfectly center of the round pins sides it will eventually start to bend either to the inside or outside area of the pins because it is using the pins to drive the lock.

Even if that doesn't happen it has the potential of knife edging into the sides of the pins making a raised burr on them. If for some reason the lock slipped passed and relocking in wrong position and then the key is inserted in wrong position some pins will be pressed way below below where they have been operating and jamb up staying in the down position because of the pins being slightly bent or have marred sides. This can happen with pins being pressed down passed where they have been working just because of dirt and oxidation build up. Plus using just the pins to turn the lock will eventually egg shape the holes. A little thinking about this should become clear it is a bad idea. Just because some lock manufactures decided to ride the coat tails of the ace lock design and change it a little to be different enough to not infringe on the superior ace patent doesn't make it proper. Doesn't take but a very little side burring of a pin to have it stay stuck in down position.

Love the look of the 38 shell as a key but if put on the market for public use especially on a vehicle such as a Harley it best have a drive and index tang or they are begging for problems.

Richard
"Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand."
Kurt Vonnegut
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jones

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Post Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:43 am

Re: tubular key cut

MrWizard wrote:If Ace lock didn't think the inside tang wasn't necessary for proper safe continuous operation of their tubular lock they wouldn't have wasted time building it into their design. Sure many other manufactures decided to not incorporate it for one reason or another but they may have not understood the main reason it is there "to drive the lock not using the pins that can bend and be marred from sideways pressure. This is why I said not good to use a no tang super thin walled bullet shell for a lock meant to have a tang to drive the lock as with a heavy monetary switch return spring or a tailpiece that binds because it is too tight as with many that have been installed and not adjusted to relieve that pressure. Yes some cheap tubular picks may not have a tang but are also not designed to be used as a daily key either.



So true, however you can find a piece of brass or mebbe even copper tubing that will fit into your bullet casing & invent something really cool. I have seen a couple of companies that make the tang with a small pin punch to the right spot on the key.

I have seen many older tubular (round) key cam locks & when they wear out the key will slip out before the tang clears it's exit point. You can just file the outside tang, the inside tang turns the lock, the outside just allows the key to withdraw when the cam is locked/free. If You know where to pull the key from the lock, the outer tang is optional.
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