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Best Lock/Schlage door question

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putts

Newbie

Posts: 7

Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:06 pm

Location: Iowa, USA

Post Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:41 pm

Best Lock/Schlage door question

I live in a new apartment/dormatory complex that has something like 96 bedrooms and about 1/3 that many apartments; so 4 bedrooms per apartment with a few exceptions.

Last week, I closed my door and when I returned, it appeard to be locked because the handle wouldn't turn, just wiggle like when it IS locked. Nope, didn't lock it when I left and putting the key in verify;s that but it still won't budge. Because it is University owned I'm not going to mess with it because if I break it, I buy it and, I don't know about picking yet. (Even if I did, my stuff would be stuck in my room!)

So, I contact the University, they send a maintenence guy/locksmith out and he gets it open after pulling the core and working away at it with a mortise wrench (Term?). He said he'd never seen it before and left perplexed after working with it for another few minutes.

Less than a week later, though, a roommate had the same problem except he HAD locked his door. You could unlock the core part (key turned, and hear it lock and unlock) but, the handle remained stuck as if it were locked. Another locksmith came and said he hadn't seen it before but, if 2 doors less than 6 feet away from each other had problems, they probably all will. "But, a little lube usually frees them up."

Question: Why would this be happening in mechinisms that have been installed less than a year and, mechanically, what would you presume is happening within the lock/latch? The plate on the latch side of the door says it is a Schlage Ff lock.

I'm curious about what I may encounter in the future or, what causes unexpected problems with locks and mechinisms. Hopefully some of you wise folks can give some insight or experience. Obviously the pics won't provide much more than an idea of the type of setup this is but, hopefully it's better than nothing. Again, if I take it apart and break it...

Handle and Cylinder:
Image

Latch:
Image
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jeffmoss26

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Sargent Mossberg
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Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:21 pm

Location: Cleveland, OH

Post Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:01 pm

Re: Best Lock/Schlage door question

Welcome to the forum! I'm sure one of the guys will chime in and help you out!
femurat: They're called restricted for a reason...
Innerpicked: The more keys you carry, the more important you look
GWiens2001: Great video! Learned a lot about what fun can be had with a forklift and a chainsaw.
pmaxey83: but i first have to submit the proper forms for a new hobby to my wife
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Altashot

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Posts: 424

Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:32 pm

Location: Western Canada

Post Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:30 pm

Re: Best Lock/Schlage door question

I have seen this problem before. The problem was that however installed the lock cylinders did not use the proper cams, Sure it did work for awhile but as soon as the cam wore down a little, they quit working. The cams barely grab the actuators in the first place, so it did not take much to have the cams slip passed it or not moving it fully to its unlock position. In my case, the installer used Sargent cams. Schlage mortise locks use their own cams. They are the clover leaf type. I ended up replacing all the cams for the proper ones and never had that issue happen again. I suspect that this is the issue you are having, especially since Best cores and housing are being used in your facility. Best are normally specific to Best, they don't often work well with other brands. Best works best with Best. LOL!

M.
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mdc5150

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Post Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:02 pm

Re: Best Lock/Schlage door question

Altashot wrote:I have seen this problem before. The problem was that however installed the lock cylinders did not use the proper cams, Sure it did work for awhile but as soon as the cam wore down a little, they quit working. The cams barely grab the actuators in the first place, so it did not take much to have the cams slip passed it or not moving it fully to its unlock position. In my case, the installer used Sargent cams. Schlage mortise locks use their own cams. They are the clover leaf type. I ended up replacing all the cams for the proper ones and never had that issue happen again. I suspect that this is the issue you are having, especially since Best cores and housing are being used in your facility. Best are normally specific to Best, they don't often work well with other brands. Best works best with Best. LOL!

M.


:agree: What he said. Those are in fact Schlage mortise lock bodies and they are using an SFIC housing. They probably have an Adams Rite cam on them and not the clover leaf as the AR cam is most common which means the contractor most likely ordered those. It could very well be that he ordered those and had the correct cams on others depending on how he was fixed for time and supply.

Welcome to the forum by the way.
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putts

Newbie

Posts: 7

Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:06 pm

Location: Iowa, USA

Post Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:48 pm

Re: Best Lock/Schlage door question

Altashot wrote:I have seen this problem before. The problem was that however installed the lock cylinders did not use the proper cams, Sure it did work for awhile but as soon as the cam wore down a little, they quit working. The cams barely grab the actuators in the first place, so it did not take much to have the cams slip passed it or not moving it fully to its unlock position. In my case, the installer used Sargent cams. Schlage mortise locks use their own cams. They are the clover leaf type. I ended up replacing all the cams for the proper ones and never had that issue happen again. I suspect that this is the issue you are having, especially since Best cores and housing are being used in your facility. Best are normally specific to Best, they don't often work well with other brands. Best works best with Best. LOL!

M.


Was that on a large project? And how long did it take for the symptoms to appear? I think this is installed about 9 months bum they only got extensive use for the last 4. (First semester the building was open was Fall 2012) To add on to this theory though, the Apartment doors (Note, this question was about Bedroom doors) had to have "parts replaced as part of their warranty" over winter break so, this is starting to look like a possibly pretty large mess up. The Apartment doors have the capability to use key-cards so I assumed it was those getting something fixed in them but, I haven't seen a key-card yet and, this is looking skeptic. I guess I'm just locking my door too much. (I do lock it A LOT though. Whenever I leave and, a lot of the time even when I'm in the room)

Unfortunately, There's nothing I can really do about this issue--How well do you think going to the Dept. of Residence and saying "the locks are messed up, here is likely the reason why." would go over, HA! :P (They'd probably take all my tool, cores, and keys!)--but, at least I can have an idea of what is causing the problem . As well as what to look at in the future as I begin learning about locks, housings, mechanisms, and all the other fun goodness.

Thank you Altashot and mdchurchill for the info. You have setteled a bit of my curiosity! And Thanks jeff and the rest for the warm welcome.
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rai

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Location: minneapolis

Post Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:43 am

Re: Best Lock/Schlage door question

you are living in a dorm on a masterkey system,
ethics says not to pick locks unless you have permission
reality says college students have been doing this for a long time.
you could really screw the pooch if you turned one of those cylinders 180 degrees and had a master wafer slip into the part of the keyway usually filled with the bottom edge of they key
You will find matt blaze has an interesting paper on rights amplification in masterkeyed systems
try to understand this and locks before doing anything that could get you in a tight corner
by a deadbolt, our salvage one if you see a whole door with hardware in a construction dumpster, you can remove the lock with just a shorty phillips screwdriver.

mysterious and cryptic instructions to the newbie :smile:
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Altashot

Active Member

Posts: 424

Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:32 pm

Location: Western Canada

Post Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:07 pm

Re: Best Lock/Schlage door question

This happened on a new addition to the international airport. The new addition wasn't even opened yet when this issue started to occur. It was indeed a large project. I can't quite remember but I know I replaced more than 50 cams.

M.
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putts

Newbie

Posts: 7

Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:06 pm

Location: Iowa, USA

Post Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:10 pm

Re: Best Lock/Schlage door question

rai wrote:you are living in a dorm on a masterkey system,
ethics says not to pick locks unless you have permission
reality says college students have been doing this for a long time.
you could really screw the pooch if you turned one of those cylinders 180 degrees and had a master wafer slip into the part of the keyway usually filled with the bottom edge of they key
You will find matt blaze has an interesting paper on rights amplification in masterkeyed systems
try to understand this and locks before doing anything that could get you in a tight corner
by a deadbolt, our salvage one if you see a whole door with hardware in a construction dumpster, you can remove the lock with just a shorty phillips screwdriver.

mysterious and cryptic instructions to the newbie :smile:


No worries. I actually don't have any ambition to work/learn on this door/lock. (Why start with something that's already broken!?) I break it, I buy it, and if there really is an underlying problem with the cam or other mechanism and I cause more issues in my learning process, well, I don't want to steamroll this hobby/fascination/interest before I even begin. Thank you for the moral and ethical check though, really it is appreciated. If I was in the OLD dorms with the same type cores and twist to lock deadbolt, no fancy parts or pieces, I may get risky and give it a try but, in here, your words aren't falling on deaf ears. PLUS, the University has already called someone in once for this door, don't want any suspicion to get raised by more. :P

Altashot wrote:This happened on a new addition to the international airport. The new addition wasn't even opened yet when this issue started to occur. It was indeed a large project. I can't quite remember but I know I replaced more than 50 cams.

M.


Thanks for the update. I wonder if it's common for GC's to install them like that. I suppose it could be easy if the Spec is for something they aren't familiar with but at least call the manufacturer on a project this large! I guess I'll find out if they come and fix the locks in my stay here.

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