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NEED HELP ASAP RR PO PO ALERT!!!

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mister sour

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Post Thu May 31, 2012 9:46 am

NEED HELP ASAP RR PO PO ALERT!!!

Nows my chance to demand answers and have the RR Police prove that Environmental Keys are illegal to own. I have a few keys up on ebay atm abd knew this would happen. as most of u know, in on a mission to document everything about these locks, cause it sickens me that they are all keyed alike and so easy to pick. THESE LOCKS PROTECT ALMOST ALL AMERICAN RAILWAYS!!!! So, what questions should I ask him and what proof shoild I seek. If you give me good ideas, i will ask him about it.
Dear thedragonsmith,

Good Afternoon,

The above item(320914940385)up for auction is a key that our nations railroads currently use for securing critical infrastructure along the railroad. This key is only given to certain employees of the railroad and is surrendered by the employee to the issueing railroad company upon separation of employment. These keys/locks #101-104 are not sold to the general public,and are either obtain in error or stolen.

I'm requesting that you end the auction and contact me at your earliest convenience.

Spl. Agent Jason Post

Norfolk Southern Rwy Police 322 Third St Elizabeth,NJ 07206

jason. 908 *** ****

- jasonp9824
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nhoj_yelbom

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Post Thu May 31, 2012 10:33 am

Re: NEED HELP ASAP RR PO PO ALERT!!!

damn, i was wondering what was going to happen with those. dumb-asses need to get new locks (abloy's) and setup proper key control guidelines and key loss rules. i want to be able to sell some on ebay because they sell good on there but i cant :(
Wanted TrioVing, ASSA, BiLock, Environmental Locks and Keys, Ingersoll
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cyrano138

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Post Thu May 31, 2012 10:37 am

Re: NEED HELP ASAP RR PO PO ALERT!!!

I'm not a LEO or a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt, but it certainly seems that if the railroad demands these keys back from employees upon termination, then they consider it their property, in which case you are in possession of lost or stolen goods. I think in most cases like this the railroad has every right to demand that you return the key as it was never surrendered legally, especially if the key becomes evidence in a case against an employee who may have sold it, and the only proof they really need to furnish is anything that establishes ownership.

If I were you, I wouldn't give myself the headache of trying to fight it. It sucks if you paid good money for it, but in that case maybe the mods will let us have an auction to help you recoup the losses; I'll throw in a couple of nice Peterson picks.
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mister sour

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Post Thu May 31, 2012 11:00 am

Re: NEED HELP ASAP RR PO PO ALERT!!!

thanks jack, but im not losing anything, infact, im gaining knowledge. u make a good point but i need to milk this agent for any and all info i can get. so i will press the matter a lil more
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Riyame

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Post Thu May 31, 2012 11:52 am

Re: NEED HELP ASAP RR PO PO ALERT!!!

I was reading on another forum where a guy knew several people who were told to just "keep the keys" when they retired. Does not sound like everybody cares about getting every key back hmm?

And I think they would first have to indeed prove that it is indeed stolen property and was not found then sold (to you). Everybody looses keys at one time or another. In that situation they would not be stolen property.

I know when my dad quit working for the RR he was friends with the boss and they never told him to give back the key he had. It was lost some time ago. Although this was the early 90s with an Adlake key and not an enviro one.
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cyrano138

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Post Thu May 31, 2012 2:17 pm

Re: NEED HELP ASAP RR PO PO ALERT!!!

mister sour wrote:thanks jack, but im not losing anything, infact, im gaining knowledge. u make a good point but i need to milk this agent for any and all info i can get. so i will press the matter a lil more



More power to you! I'd have to say if there was anything I'd be curious to know about the whole situation, it's how in the heck they found your auction. Do they have someone search ebay for RR keys, or was this just coincidence?
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Riyame

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Post Thu May 31, 2012 2:36 pm

Re: NEED HELP ASAP RR PO PO ALERT!!!

cyrano138 wrote:
mister sour wrote:thanks jack, but im not losing anything, infact, im gaining knowledge. u make a good point but i need to milk this agent for any and all info i can get. so i will press the matter a lil more



More power to you! I'd have to say if there was anything I'd be curious to know about the whole situation, it's how in the heck they found your auction. Do they have someone search ebay for RR keys, or was this just coincidence?


There are quite a few RR police that will look on ebay, and some people will report the items to them as well.
PhoneMan: I always knew I'd say something stupid and it would be someone's sig
macgng: i am an equal opportunity pervert
macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
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mdc5150

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Post Thu May 31, 2012 3:03 pm

Re: NEED HELP ASAP RR PO PO ALERT!!!

Get what information you can, ask him to cite any laws (by the legal code that it is recognized) politely that you might be violating by either being in possession or attempting to sell these keys. But remember the railroad police are of a federal jurisdiction so they can reach out and touch you anywhere as long as they have the laws to back it up.

You could also suggest that if they are so worried about it they could use the government credit card to win the auction.
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MBI

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Post Thu May 31, 2012 4:16 pm

Re: NEED HELP ASAP RR PO PO ALERT!!!

I verified that the field office you listed does exist and there is an agent by that name based there, although you didn't post his full number so I couldn't call him to talk to him, and their dispatcher wouldn't connect me to him for some reason.

The national railroads are a jurisdictional nightmare with many overlapping areas. I just spoke to a transit cop I know who works with the railroad police a lot, he wasn't aware of a law regulating those locks or keys, but due to the jurisdictional overlaps he said there isn't any one place to look for such legislation. He said the most likely place to look under Federal law is in CFR 49 (Code of Federal Regulations, Title 49), but there could be related laws at the state level in different parts of the country. I just spent a couple hours reading through CFR 49 and the only reference I could find regarding locks, is simply that in certain circumstances, certain pieces of railroad property are required to be locked. It doesn't even specify how. But I'm not a legal expert.

I think someone just needs to talk to Agent Post and get the scoop right from him, rather than speculate. Hopefully he can direct us to the relevant piece of legal code, if it exists, that shows that posession of those locks or keys is regulated.

There is always the stolen property issue, but I don't know how one could prove it was stolen. I don't have my hands on the items in question to see if there are any markings that definitively show that it is their property and not a reproduction, as seems to happen sometimes with collectible locks and keys.
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mister sour

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Post Thu May 31, 2012 6:43 pm

Re: NEED HELP ASAP RR PO PO ALERT!!!

MBI wrote:I verified that the field office you listed does exist and there is an agent by that name based there, although you didn't post his full number so I couldn't call him to talk to him, and their dispatcher wouldn't connect me to him for some reason.

The national railroads are a jurisdictional nightmare with many overlapping areas. I just spoke to a transit cop I know who works with the railroad police a lot, he wasn't aware of a law regulating those locks or keys, but due to the jurisdictional overlaps he said there isn't any one place to look for such legislation. He said the most likely place to look under Federal law is in CFR 49 (Code of Federal Regulations, Title 49), but there could be related laws at the state level in different parts of the country. I just spent a couple hours reading through CFR 49 and the only reference I could find regarding locks, is simply that in certain circumstances, certain pieces of railroad property are required to be locked. It doesn't even specify how. But I'm not a legal expert.

I think someone just needs to talk to Agent Post and get the scoop right from him, rather than speculate. Hopefully he can direct us to the relevant piece of legal code, if it exists, that shows that posession of those locks or keys is regulated.

There is always the stolen property issue, but I don't know how one could prove it was stolen. I don't have my hands on the items in question to see if there are any markings that definitively show that it is their property and not a reproduction, as seems to happen sometimes with collectible locks and keys.

The one in question is a 102 key marked UPRR on the back. NO serial number. I could easily say its a cast copy, but I will ask him for more info. Perhaps he could pay me for the key. I dont know. I just hate being scammed!!!!
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nhoj_yelbom

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Post Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:32 am

Re: NEED HELP ASAP RR PO PO ALERT!!!

mister sour wrote:
MBI wrote:I verified that the field office you listed does exist and there is an agent by that name based there, although you didn't post his full number so I couldn't call him to talk to him, and their dispatcher wouldn't connect me to him for some reason.

The national railroads are a jurisdictional nightmare with many overlapping areas. I just spoke to a transit cop I know who works with the railroad police a lot, he wasn't aware of a law regulating those locks or keys, but due to the jurisdictional overlaps he said there isn't any one place to look for such legislation. He said the most likely place to look under Federal law is in CFR 49 (Code of Federal Regulations, Title 49), but there could be related laws at the state level in different parts of the country. I just spent a couple hours reading through CFR 49 and the only reference I could find regarding locks, is simply that in certain circumstances, certain pieces of railroad property are required to be locked. It doesn't even specify how. But I'm not a legal expert.

I think someone just needs to talk to Agent Post and get the scoop right from him, rather than speculate. Hopefully he can direct us to the relevant piece of legal code, if it exists, that shows that posession of those locks or keys is regulated.

There is always the stolen property issue, but I don't know how one could prove it was stolen. I don't have my hands on the items in question to see if there are any markings that definitively show that it is their property and not a reproduction, as seems to happen sometimes with collectible locks and keys.

The one in question is a 102 key marked UPRR on the back. NO serial number. I could easily say its a cast copy, but I will ask him for more info. Perhaps he could pay me for the key. I dont know. I just hate being scammed!!!!


For sure let me know if he is going to buy them!
Last edited by nhoj_yelbom on Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Wanted TrioVing, ASSA, BiLock, Environmental Locks and Keys, Ingersoll
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Violaetor

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Post Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:13 am

Re: NEED HELP ASAP RR PO PO ALERT!!!

Was this a direct copy from the email?
mister sour wrote:
Spl. Agent Jason Post

Norfolk Southern Rwy Police 322 Third St Elizabeth,NJ 07206

jason. 908 *** ****

- jasonp9824


Anytime you get something official particularly from a government it is signed properly with FULL contact information. NOT signed "jason" or "-jason9824". I would ignore it as a scam, if its serious they will contact you officially, or put a request in to ebay for your contact information, or have ebay remove it directly.

Say if a cop is going to arrest a guy, he's not likely going to call him on the phone and ask if he can come down to the station and handcuff himself, He would just show up and take his ass to jail. ie, your key would already have been removed from your possession if it was legit imho.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:38 am

Re: NEED HELP ASAP RR PO PO ALERT!!!

Thanks for all the footwork you've done with this Sour. It's been very interesting (and concerning) since you began researching it.

Your purpose seems to be 2-fold.
1) The legality of actually owning/selling of environmentals/keys.... and
2) The lack of security they provide for such a vital transportation system. Rightfully so!!

This is not your first contact with the agency, which is a good thing. At least they're out there trying to do their best.
Unfortunately, as you've already discovered... no amount of manpower will make up for the weakness that exists here.
The email you received with words like "request" and "at your convenience", was both odd and pleasant.

Odd, if it is indeed law, you'd think it'd be worded a little more demanding. But pleasant, considering the wording....
further discussion with him seems promising... so maybe you'll find your answers. Maybe he could even provide you
with WHO or WHERE to write/call for expressing your concerns over the lack of security these locks are providing.

As far as the legal issue... I agree with Violator. Most certainly you'd think they'd have the power to just have ebay
pull the auction, and then make contact with you later. If I remember your first contact with them was in person
was it not? I thought they rang your doorbell. lol
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Riyame

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Post Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:50 am

Re: NEED HELP ASAP RR PO PO ALERT!!!

Oldfast wrote: If I remember your first contact with them was in person
was it not? I thought they rang your doorbell. lol


Naw, they did threaten to come down with a warrant and seize pretty much everything if he did not comply though. :bird:
PhoneMan: I always knew I'd say something stupid and it would be someone's sig
macgng: i am an equal opportunity pervert
macgng: aww fuck thats goin in someone sig :-(

If life gives you melons, you might be dyslexic.
<<

Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Fri Jun 01, 2012 12:00 pm

Re: NEED HELP ASAP RR PO PO ALERT!!!

Oh...ok. Well, it will CERTAINLY be interesting to see how this all plays out.
And even more so, what information Sour is able to obtain through all this!!
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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