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Magnets to replace drivers/springs

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mister sour

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Post Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:10 pm

Re: Magnets to replace drivers/springs

Dougq1300 wrote:Gordon,
For magnetic locks, you'll have a magnet, usually at the top of the door, that when it is powered, the door is locked. There is also an electric strike that is controlled by a solenoid to lock or unlock the strike. The UL rating refers to the key and the cylinder that it operates. (Now, I could be wrong on some of these points, but the general idea is correct). This being said, mag locks and electric strikes are something that cannot be manipulated with a magnet.

I think you dont know what an EVVA MCS is, or a MIWA...... or a Miracle Magnetic Lock.....
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Mikeh727

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Post Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:02 pm

Re: Magnets to replace drivers/springs

Dougq1300 wrote:Underwriters Laboratories (all locks sold have a UL rating) requires that all components within a lock must be non magnetic. This is done so you can't manipulate a lock with a magnet.


Doug,

Where are you getting this information? I'm not sure that there is a requirement that locks, or any product for that matter, are required to be UL listed.

From the UL Website:

UL.com wrote:Manufacturers submit products to UL for testing and safety certification on a voluntary basis. There are no laws specifying that a UL Mark must be used. However, in the United States there are many municipalities that have laws, codes or regulations which require a product to be tested by a nationally recognized testing laboratory before it can be sold in their area. UL is the largest and oldest nationally recognized testing laboratory in the United States. UL does not, however, maintain a list of the jurisdictions having such regulations.


Some locks are UL Listed. But I don't think there's a requirement.

UL has a number of different UL categories for locks, they can be found here:

http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offe ... standards/

UL 437 deals with security ratings and you can read about those here, among other places:

http://www.lockwiki.com/index.php/UL_437

Just looking over UL437, most locks don't even come close to the standards. Maybe there's more to it than what I can find, and I'd be interested if you can point me in that direction.

-Mike
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PhoneMan

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Post Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:14 pm

Re: Magnets to replace drivers/springs

don't need another magnet to defeat an electromagnetic lock, just pull a fire alarm! (most doors have to unlock on a fire alarm so people aren't trapped trying to enter a code/use a key to escape) also chewing gum on the surface of the electromagnet will stop it from making good contact. But this is off topic to the original post, just thought I'd add it.
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mastersmith

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Post Tue Jun 10, 2014 8:14 pm

Re: Magnets to replace drivers/springs

Doug, The thing is, Gordon IS talking about keys and cylinders, look up EVVA. Now for my questions, for those in the know about such things! How will the magnetic fields act being in such close proximity to each other? Aren't these magnets very brittle? Could they survive even a weak physical attack without crumbling to dust? I have seen these used as half the contact for a position sensor in automatic doors, and broken my share!
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GWiens2001

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Post Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:15 pm

Re: Magnets to replace drivers/springs

Some of the locks are affected by an impact, mastersmith. It is not that the magnets break, but rather that some of them will demagnetize! The Miracle Magnetic lock was supposedly vulnerable to that attack.

Gordon
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huxleypig

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Post Tue Jun 10, 2014 10:04 pm

Re: Magnets to replace drivers/springs

Well I never knew that! So the magnetic bits of the Miracle are vulnerable to rapping?

I did wonder if the magnetic tumbler-only version of the MIWA 3800 (or the EC) was vulnerable to rapping too because the springs in there are quite weak when compared to regular pin tumbler springs...But I do not like the idea of bashing the shit out of my MIWA's.

Regarding 3mm dia x 2mm disc magnets, they are plentiful and cheap, I have 50 here and they cost about $5, grade N52 too.

Now if you want to start getting much smaller, then it starts getting harder. The smaller you want to go, the harder it gets...
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GWiens2001

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Post Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:02 am

Re: Magnets to replace drivers/springs

TWSS

:twisted:

Gordon
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10ringo10

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Post Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:08 am

Re: Magnets to replace drivers/springs

Avocet ABS mark 1-2-3 euro use a magnet in key ! this is it picked using a n52 magnet sat in the lock acting as a pin for lift just as the key acts
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xeo

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Post Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:37 am

Re: Magnets to replace drivers/springs

If you mean where the keypin and driver were magnetically attracted to the bottom of the chamber, I think picking it would be easier than springs. The shearline would still hold drivers even though they're magnetically attracted and you might need more tension force to counteract the attraction. Has anyone tried this?
Image
The code is hidden in the tumblers. One position opens the lock, another position opens one of these doors...
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Marduk28

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Post Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:15 am

Re: Magnets to replace drivers/springs

Can these be "Picked" with a strong magnet?

Image
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GWiens2001

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Post Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:20 am

Re: Magnets to replace drivers/springs

Marduk28 wrote:Can these be "Picked" with a strong magnet?

Image


No, but five of them can be used to open the lock.

Gordon
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subsonic1050

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Post Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:59 am

Re: Magnets to replace drivers/springs

I have also thought many times about using magnets in a lock - most recently... TODAY, haha. Anyway, my contribution is regarding the UL listing. I used to work as a firefighter, and learned a bit about UL listing.

Many people refer to something being "UL Approved". My understanding is that Underwriters Laboratories doesn't really "approve" anything. All it does is test various equipment, and if it meets their standards the manufacturer is allowed to label it as "UL Listed". To my knowledge, most things do not require a UL listing in order to be sold.

I think the biggest concern about the magnetic pins would be a weakness due to physical attack, which has already been pointed out. I have worked with neodymium magnets quite a bit. They are VERY hard, but also VERY brittle. I have broken a few just from dropping them - I even had some break because two of them slammed together too hard from the magnetic force.

However, if the idea is just to create a fun picking challenge, I think that's great! Somebody could also employ some standard pins of a different material in the lock to prevent the physical attack.
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huxleypig

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Post Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:51 am

Re: Magnets to replace drivers/springs

Marduk28 wrote:Can these be "Picked" with a strong magnet?

Image



I think I am right in saying that all the tumblers in this lock need pulling towards the key? So a magnetic probe to decode what is in the lock (or some sort of electronic equivalent :cool: ) would tell you what you needed to simulate the key.
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ckc123

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Post Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:04 pm

Re: Magnets to replace drivers/springs

The problem with neodymium magnets is that they are sintered metal.. not solid.. the coating around this (usually nickel plated) gives them most of their strength, and protection against corrosion.

after a bit of use, any crack or break of the coating will cause corrosion and the lock will not work.
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GWiens2001

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Post Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:27 pm

Re: Magnets to replace drivers/springs

huxleypig wrote:
Marduk28 wrote:Can these be "Picked" with a strong magnet?

Image



I think I am right in saying that all the tumblers in this lock need pulling towards the key? So a magnetic probe to decode what is in the lock (or some sort of electronic equivalent :cool: ) would tell you what you needed to simulate the key.


Short and simple answer is ... No. Do a search on YouTube for magnetic lock cutaway, and you can see how they work. It would take too long to explain.

Gordon
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