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Pin tumbler Decoder

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LocksmithArmy

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Post Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:34 pm

Pin tumbler Decoder

I am trying to devise a way to make a decoder that will open any standard pin tumbler lock

Falle did this to a point, his idea took a blank key and worked that way... to a point...
I do not wish to use a blank key, my idea will have a blade that fits the top portion of the keyway not the entire keyway... but that is not the question i need answered right now...

falles design would fail to serrated keypins... How can i combat this.
(to answer you must know how falles design works...so here is an excerpt for ya)
Universal_Pin_Tumbler_Lock_Decoder.pdf


please let me know any ideas yo may have to defeat serrated keypins but still allow the shim to go between the keypin and driver
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barbarian

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Post Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:58 am

Re: Pin tumbler Decoder

LocksmithArmy wrote:I am trying to devise a way to make a decoder that will open any standard pin tumbler lock..................

..............
I do not wish to use a blank key, my idea will have a blade that fits the top portion of the keyway not the entire keyway................

......any ideas you may have to defeat serrated keypins but still allow the shim to go between the keypin and driver


Great idea....

Sounds sort of like a Sputnick pick, but without the keyway specific problem they have. Can you make a Sputnick with a blade type blank that would be "universal" ?
Not sure why the blade needs to only be in the top of the keyway ?

The Falle tool must have a very fine wire to slip between the pin and the hole in the plug. Has anyone got an idea of the size of wire he used ?
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LocksmithArmy

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Post Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:42 am

Re: Pin tumbler Decoder

there is an attatchment with pictures... i think the wire is shown if not eric schmidt has pics of it...

i would do the top of the keyway only cause most keyways (in the states) have a straight top portion so it would work for all of them, it would be adjustable in size so itll fit taller or shorter straight top parts of the keyway... but ignore the squiggley bottom portion... itll even work at an angle so you can use it in like a yale or something...

thats the idea anyway
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barbarian

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Post Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:22 am

Re: Pin tumbler Decoder

The top of the keyway idea makes perfect sense now.. :smile:

How about using a hypodermic needle for a wire guide tube? It could travel along a groove cut in the blade and be moved for each pin decoding much like the Falle tool, only along the side rather than the top.

Not sure what the inside hole measures on a hypodermic. The smallest wire I could find was 40 gage and it measures a hair over 3 thou.
Will a 3 thou wire fit beside the pins in most locks ?

The sputnik pick does all the pins at once. It would be much less complex to do one pin at a time.

Frikking great idea.. Love to see the finished tool when you are done.

Edit >> found some info on the hypos. seems that you can get them all the way down to 7 thou outside with a 3 thou hole. Sweet...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gau ... ison_chart
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KokomoLock

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Post Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:31 am

Re: Pin tumbler Decoder

LocksmithArmy wrote:I am trying to devise a way to make a decoder that will open any standard pin tumbler lock

Falle did this to a point, his idea took a blank key and worked that way... to a point...
I do not wish to use a blank key, my idea will have a blade that fits the top portion of the keyway not the entire keyway... but that is not the question i need answered right now...

falles design would fail to serrated keypins... How can i combat this.
(to answer you must know how falles design works...so here is an excerpt for ya)
Universal_Pin_Tumbler_Lock_Decoder.pdf


please let me know any ideas yo may have to defeat serrated keypins but still allow the shim to go between the keypin and driver


So a couple questions for you first cause I don't quite understand. You say "I am trying to devise a way to make a decoder that will open any standard pin tumbler lock", so your tool will pick open and decode the pins with one tool or just decode like the Falle tool then cut a key? Why could you not pick the lock first then use a decoder to decode the pins? I would love a tool that I could use to decode say a Master Padlock, I have so many with no keys, Pick open the Master Padlock, insert your tool, then decode it and cut a key. I hate impressioning Master locks. You also say the tool would fail to serrated keypins, who other than American Padlocks here in the states use serrated keypins? Okay, so the wire travels up the side of the pin, hits the first serration on the pin and game over, the decoder get the wrong depth? What if the tip of the wire was just a little bigger than the serrations, most serrated keypins that i have seen are really fine, but I don't know what size wire they are using? Sorry for the long post, this will be a cool tool!!
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LocksmithArmy

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Post Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:59 pm

Re: Pin tumbler Decoder

i was planning to use a hypodermic needle ;)

my tool was to decode it without picking it... but i suppose pickign it and then decoding would be great too... hrmm now i gotta think more lol

idk in america who else uses them... but im not alwasy in america and neither is everytone on the forum... plus i just wanna do one better than falle ;)

and i done understand what you meen by make the wire bigger than the serrateion...
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KokomoLock

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Post Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:03 pm

Re: Pin tumbler Decoder

I am just making up numbers here but if the serration in the keypin is .010, use a wire that is .015 that way the tip of the wire just slides right over the serration without catching in it. Just a thought, I don't know how big the actual working wire will be.
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LocksmithArmy

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Post Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:07 pm

Re: Pin tumbler Decoder

i dont think it works like that... the corner would get caught either way...
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datagram

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Post Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:26 pm

Re: Pin tumbler Decoder

Kokomo: The problem isn't the size of the wire, it's that it has to be slightly bent to face the pins in order to feel the split. That's why the serrations work well at defeating this type of tool; they catch the bent part and prevent it from going higher.

datagram
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barbarian

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Post Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:51 pm

Re: Pin tumbler Decoder

Kokomo. Sounds like a homebrew version of this might work if the lock is picked.

LishiA33.jpg


LSA. If you are going with a tool that picks and decodes, won't the top of keyway idea be a problem ? Once you put the blade in the top part of the keyway, a good number of the keypins might be lifted high enough to block the shearline. Plus you need a wire for each pin. Looking a lot like a sputnik pick now.

I did measure a couple of locks. I don't have a super accurate small hole mic.
Medeco pins .135 Medeco pin chambers .139
Schlage pins .114 Schlage pin chambers .120

Seems like the wire will need to be around .003 or .004
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LocksmithArmy

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Post Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:41 pm

Re: Pin tumbler Decoder

no pick with picks then decode, but i think it would be faster to be able to decode without having to pick first.
deffinately no pick and decode, as that would be a variable key system or... the sputnilk
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piotr

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Post Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:41 am

Re: Pin tumbler Decoder

LocksmithArmy wrote:please let me know any ideas yo may have to defeat serrated keypins but still allow the shim to go between the keypin and driver


Wow, that's quite a task you have set for yourself. It seems to me that snagging on the serration of a key pin is a problem inherent in Falle's fundamental idea of using a (naked) inwardly curved fine wire to probe for the base of the driver pin.

The only way around this that occurs to me at the moment is to be able to variably hide and reveal the curved probe wire in a vertically oriented sheath that can be introduced parallel to the key pin. Essentially a catheter for the probe wire. This would permit testing if you are still at the keypin and its serrations -- the probe would stop short at a serration whereas with the actual base of the driver pin it would be able to extend fully from the catheter. This difference in extension of the probe from the catheter would permit discrimination between key pin serration and base of driver. But this adds a whole layer of complexity. You would need to be able to control the rise and retraction of the probes catheter. I don't think the catheter could be a syringe needle because you would need to be able to rise and retract it. It would need to be able to extend the distance of the longest keypin (and then retract).

The closest design problem that I can think of is catheterisation in minimally-invasive surgery. Consider the design of the arterial catheter which is used to introduce a stent. The requirement to retract the catheter may necessitate the use of a deflectable-tip design which is often employed in parts of the body that are difficult to catheterise, eg. the liver which tends to snag catheters.

In essence what I am suggesting is a retractable catheter for the probe wire.
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Froggy

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Post Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:19 am

Re: Pin tumbler Decoder

there is another way to decode pin locks ... if the lock has not balanced pins. I mean if the lock is coded only by the drivers and the pins have all the same depth.
using a tool decoder looking more or less like a LISHI tool for cars. Compress all in the chamber ... ( spring, driver and pin) and measure out the small difference in the chamber. With a chart ... you can decode the lock by measuring the difference when you know the depth of the compressed spring and the pin ... if you have small errors you can finish your key by impressioning.

this tool only works on a lock with a "straight key entry" as TESA for ex

for other locks you can use the same principle as the Sputnik using only one needle inserted on a key blank and decoding chamber by chamber. The pin spaces are just a small cut on the blank and the needle is inserted in the back of the blank by using a small groove alongside with a small handle to measure out the depth of each chamber using the same principle than above. The more difficult is to bent the needle tip correctly.
This one comes from a tool using in Brazil to decode laser car locks some years ago

I hope to be clear enough
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MrPharmer2012

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Post Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:18 pm

Re: Pin tumbler Decoder

Is this similar to what you are tring to make
http://www.multipick-service.com/htdocs ... g/sputnik/
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Froggy

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Post Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:36 pm

Re: Pin tumbler Decoder

yep ... but only with one needle decoding pin by pin by moving the blank on each chamber and using the feeler for decoding (manually or by pushing down all the things down of the chamber if the lock has not balanced pins)
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