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An experimental impressionig aid .....

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Magic1

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Post Wed May 26, 2010 6:06 pm

An experimental impressionig aid .....

I have several problems with seeing markings on the key blank, even with x30 magnification and UV light !. I thought I would have a go at breaking the problems down to causes and then attack them individually. The first was that I had no confidence in my ability to accurately locate the first file cuts. This first tool tackles that problem.

In a video by Mikey1 he used a cylinder core for 'something' and I assumed that he had turned a cylinder core into a filing jig, for pre-marking the blank blade. Since the cylinder was made of brass I wondered how many keys could be marked without the slots in the filing jig getting filed away. The other problem is that some blanks have a width that is already pretty close to a zero cut and marking the pin positions with a file could wipe out a zero cut completely, rendering the blank useless.So one question was how to mark the filing positions on a blank, without reducing it's width. I chose a chisel punch for a first attempt.

The cylinder core is basically unmodified, I have only cleaned up the ends a little. The blank key is fitted into the core and secured in place with a rubber band. The tool is then placed on the core and blank assembly, with the chisel punch in one of the core holes. Gently strike the chisel punch and it marks the blade, then do the other four markings in the same way. This should be done before preparing the blank edge for filing. The idea of the slot in the tool is to keep the chisel at exactly 90 degrees to the blank blade, as it slides backwards and forwards on the bow.

Metal displaced by a punch has to go somewhere, in this case a little appears on either side of the indentation and a little spreads sideways. Bearing in mind that the next operation is the preparation of the blade edge for impressioning, both of these will disappear, especially if blade thinning is employed to speed up impressioning.

The indentations are too narrow to affect a pins, but do provide an excellent guide for those first few strokes of the file. Now it may well be, a little experience will quickly replace the use of the tool. It may also be that you may have a better idea ?. My next problem is finding a way to see the marks during impressioning.
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HallisChalmers

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Post Wed May 26, 2010 6:38 pm

Re: An experimental impressionig aid .....

Just off the top of my head - and I'm not saying the idea works. It's just a thought - but how about rubbing a pencil lead along the edge of the key. Then when you insert the key in the keyway, the pins would rub off the graphite - marking their location on the key edge?

If not graphite - maybe machinists dye - or maybe some type writer correction fluid aka Whiteout?
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jailersmith

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Post Wed May 26, 2010 7:08 pm

Re: An experimental impressionig aid .....

Interesting concept. I use a blueing pen for gun touch ups. It doesn't scratch off as easily and the pin marks show up better IMHO.
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Magic1

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Post Wed May 26, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: An experimental impressionig aid .....

I was just playing with candle black, looks like good coverage, but a lot gets scraped off when the key is inserted, which leaves you with dots on a line. Varying the viewing angle can make the impressions more visible as shown in the photo's below. Now I have about 3 degree's rotation in the Yale clone I am playing with and my first 'impression' is that the pins are riding on a high point and the marks could be a lot longer. Logically (or illogically) the blade edge should not be filed flat, but given a radius. Also, although blade thinning with create an impression faster, it will be smaller and may end up hidden under the horizontal scratch line as in the bottom photo.

I had extreme difficulty in getting pencil 'lead' to stick to the brass especially if it is polished, as the key blade might be. It needs a spirit base in order to 'paint' it on

I think I need to actually measure the angular change of the key and try and calculate what the length of the marking could be on a radius-ed blade. On the other hand getting inebriated seems like a good option.
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awol70

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Post Wed May 26, 2010 7:52 pm

Re: An experimental impressionig aid .....

blue sharpie.
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Magic1

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Post Wed May 26, 2010 8:14 pm

Re: An experimental impressionig aid .....

Being difficult Huh :D . I'll get one tomorrow. I do have a black Sharpie and it gave me the following .....
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awol70

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Post Wed May 26, 2010 9:05 pm

Re: An experimental impressionig aid .....

Magic1 wrote:Being difficult Huh :D . I'll get one tomorrow. I do have a black Sharpie and it gave me the following .....

i have found blue to work a bit better than black,the double tip fine/ultra fine is a lot of help.
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Magic1

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Post Wed May 26, 2010 9:27 pm

Re: An experimental impressionig aid .....

Thanks, I will try it ...
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elbowmacaroni

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Post Thu May 27, 2010 2:07 am

Re: An experimental impressionig aid .....

Let me preface this with the fact that I am completely inept at impressioning, mainly due to also not being able to see the flippin' marks...

That said, I've heard tell that bluing fluid for welding and other metalwork does nice as well as many of the suggestions above. I have shared your experience with the lampblack/candleblack and black sharpie just not cutting the mustard. If you have some bluing fluid you might want to give that a shot as well.
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the lockpickkid

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Post Thu May 27, 2010 3:37 am

Re: An experimental impressionig aid .....

I too have some problems marking the cuts, they actually make a tool for inserting into the pin holes and marking the blank, works great I have had one for awhile now. Sort of like yours. Works good for when you can take the lock apart and need to file a key by hand.
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Magic1

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Post Thu May 27, 2010 2:57 pm

Re: An experimental impressionig aid .....

I have now tried red, white and blue permanent markers, UV ink marker and candle soot, under both white and UV light. Lamp black is possibly slightly better than the others, except that it rubs off so easy it leaves the horizontal line when slid across the pins. The problem is that this line is thin near the shoulder but gets wider towards the tip and starts to cover up the wanted makings.

While messing about with the above, I was using a USB microscope to take photo's of the markings. One of the problems with any high magnification system is it takes time to get the blade into focus if done by hand and time is important in competitions. The answer for me, was a machinists V block, but they would be easy to make from wood. My home made impressioning tool handle id round in cross section, so I only have to drop it in into the V block and the blade is always in perfect focus. In addition it is easy to rotate the handle to get the best light condition on the markings. The set up may be of interest to others.

IM000635.JPG


The USB microscope is fitted to a home made stand. The microscope has six built in white LED's and four push button light levels. The baseboard for the stand is the wrong shape for what I have in mind, so maybe I need to make a new one. To take the photo's, the V block is just sitting on the base board loose. When I took this photo I realised that there was room under the microscope to do the filing in situ, providing the v block was permanently fitted to the base board.

On the monitor behind, the microscope program is running and you can see on the screen , what the microscope is seeing, ie one Y2 blank that has been pre-marked for impressioning, with yesterdays tool. I don't know off hand what magnification was used, but in the window you can see three of the blade marks. By adjusting the height of the microscope camera, you could display the whole length of the blade. The other alternative is to slide the impressioning handle sideways in the V block. The V block maintains the ideal focus.

As described it would speed up the whole process, maintain focus and position and cut out the need to keep moving the handle between magnifier / light and the bench. The V block also gives better rigidity when filing and the lighting is always optimal.

OK ..... pre-marked key blanks (if allowed), a decent impressioning rig ...... and I still can't see the bloody marks !
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thelockoutguys

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Post Thu May 27, 2010 4:48 pm

Re: An experimental impressionig aid .....

copy of filling for dollars, sometimes a blue sharpie and like anything else practice. And a good file doesnt hurt either. Everybody that tries to impression should at least watch hank spicers basic video on impressioning ! I beleive i saw it in software a long time ago and also in the last torrent go round.
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elbowmacaroni

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Post Thu May 27, 2010 7:28 pm

Re: An experimental impressionig aid .....

Kokomolock has a good video on impressioning too, granted it's for a ford ignition wafer lock and not a pin tumbler, but it is very well done and informative. Worth a look for sure! I'm pretty sure it's in his "kokomolock's videos" thread here, if not, just go to one of his videos on youtube from another of his in that thread, and you can find it in his list there.
"Cave ab homine unius libri" - Beware of anyone who has just one book

(2014.02.09 - 23:26:03) huxleypig: i freaking love cream
(2014.02.09 - 23:27:11) huxleypig: hey, come on, cream is nice
(2014.02.09 - 23:27:37) huxleypig: aww, i suddenly feel very sick

(23:37:46) LocksmithArmy: you should see my school girl outfit
(23:37:50) LocksmithArmy: wait... what

(13:19:50) xeo: that chick will never be satisfied by a real dick
(13:19:54) NNFAK: I would man...

(22:59:49) PhoneMan: how do you let a forum die if users keep using it? kill the servers?

May those who love us, love us; and those who don't love us, may God turn their hearts; and if He doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles so we'll know them by their limping

If someone had prince albert in a can, does that mean they'd have a killer codpiece?

(00:52:02) WolfSpring: elbow could sell a sandbox to an egyptian
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Magic1

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Post Fri May 28, 2010 7:17 pm

Re: An experimental impressionig aid .....

Continuing from yesterday, I decided to make up an impressioning jig, just for something to do. Also my previous key handle was too short, so I thought I would make a longer one. I put a lock mounting bracket on the right hand side of the board. The tool mounting on the left serves several purposes. First the tool just drops onto the holder and gives the correct focus instantly, without having to make adjustments. The tool slides sideways and rotates to give an optimum viewing angle. With a very small amount of downward pressure, the tool is held rigidly and the filing can be done in this position, whilst still under the USB microscope, which helps with the initial cuts. A video view of three cuts can be seen on the monitor behind , but magnification can be changed by raising or lowering the camera.
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Last edited by Magic1 on Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ChicoSlim803

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Post Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:16 am

Re: An experimental impressionig aid .....

wow a USB microscope have to say that is new to me. how much did that set u back?
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