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Sweep frequency, electronic pick guns ....

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Magic1

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Post Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:11 pm

Sweep frequency, electronic pick guns ....

I must have watched just about every video on Youtube concerning pick guns and wonder how efficient they are. I suppose one first needs to define the word 'efficient' in this context. For me it is the the ability to pick the lock the fastest, with the minimum amount of damage to the lock and the shortest training time. people often manage to open a lock with an electric pick gun in seconds ... and then again there are some who seem to be sawing the lock in half with it Hi!. So the crazy question is ... how fast can a lock be opened ... and I think the answer is in milli-seconds.

High speed photography shows that pins start to bounce 'wildly' a few milli-seconds after the first strike and that makes it more unlikely that the driven pins will stay together as a 'pack' for very long in order to clear the shear line. Another problem with motor driven electric pick guns is that it takes a finite time for the operating speed to produce a greater than 1G strike on all pins ... at the same time. Well if it is a swinging needle gun then we know that it can never strike all pins at the same time, with the same amount of energy, because the needle describes an arc. The back pins will always get struck harder than those at the front of the lock.

There is also a small matter of resonance inside the lock, due to the mass of the driven pins and the return springs. One manufacturer claims to have addressed this, by electronically controlling the mechanical stimulus to the key pins. You can get the basic Idea at ....

http://www.multipick-service.com/htdocs ... ontrol.php

I don't know off hand if the HPC Flipit gun they use is motor or solenoid driven ?. Maybe someone here knows. Also is it a swinging needle gun ?.

If we assume for a moment that the theory behind the gun is sound, then we need to remember that all locks are different, even of the same brand and model. (Think about the mass of the key pins, which are different lengths). That means that the ideal stimulus frequency will also vary from lock to lock and we would have to resort to sweeping the frequency over a wide enough range, that would encompass the characteristics of all locks of a given type. That in itself is not a problem and this forum could develop an electronic box of tricks that could be made for a few pounds, with all of the facilities that the £1000 commercial model has.

OK the question you are going to ask is why go to all this trouble if a bog standard electric pick gun can open most locks quickly. My question is, ... what about all of the locks that pick guns fail to open at the moment ?.

If there was enough interest in examining this further, a design for a micro-controlled unit could be made available.
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Magic1

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Post Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:34 pm

Re: Sweep frequency, electronic pick guns ....

This afternoon, I sat down and started writing the software for a micro-processor sweep frequency pick gun. I must have been having a senior moment when I last thought about a specification for one, because I think I was wildly out on the frequency range. Maybe I still had the last electronics project in mind. If you think about a conventional electric pick gun, my gut feeling is that they are working too fast . I have no idea what RPM the commercial pick guns work on but if we assume that the motor operates at 15,000 RPM, that equates to a frequency of only 250 Hz, so I will make that the upper frequency. I have another gut feeling that if any useful effects exist, they will probably be in the frequency rand of 15 - 100 Hz. so as a starting point I can set the lower frequency end of the sweep range at 1 Hz. For design purposes my design range is going to be 1 Hz - 250 Hz, see what I get and go from there.

Below is a photograph of a PIC micro-processor development board that I designed for the kid's project. The processor on it is a 40 pin PIC 16F877 running at 4 MHz. The first thing to do is to write a routine to give us the basic sweep from 1 Hz to 250 Hz, in one Hz steps .... and because micro-processors work extremely fast the next job is to slow the speed of the sweep down to the response range of a motor or solenoid, by having a programmable dwell at each frequency step. At this stage I have made no effort to set the duty cycle of the resulting square wave.

On the photograph of the board the program has stepped through the frequency range and has stopped at 250 Hz, in the finished program the sweep will auto-repeat until the lock opens, when the frequency at opening and lock opening time will be displayed on the LCD.

I have done what I said I was going to do, but as you can see there has been no response to the theme, so it is questionable whether it is worth continuing it.
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Riff

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Post Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Sweep frequency, electronic pick guns ....

Some very interesting stuff you got going on there magic. I've actually never seen a pick gun like the one in this link :
http://www.multipick-service.com/htdocs ... ontrol.php I myself have made a homebrew electric pickgun out of some black and decker scissors. It opens locks (without security pins) but it is a very very violent process. So violent in fact that it would break my pick blade after using it for a short time. It seems like you are trying to take a different approach. Rather than violently vibrating the pins to sheer you are looking to find the frequency that would allow the transfer of energy to resonate to the pins inside the lock to open it in seconds. Like you mentioned I to think there will be problems with this since there are so many different locks and models out on the marked. Therefore I see where you are going with the idea of sweeping the frequency. It sounds like complicated stuff, but very interesting. I didnt understand everything that you were saying in your post. I think I understood the main idea though. I hope you figure out that perect frequency sweep to open just about any lock in seconds. That would be awsome!! Do you know if that electric pick in the link you posted opens security pins? Do you know how it performs when faced with serrated spools??? How do you know what frequency to set the machine on with a particular lock? or you arent looking to do that? Just sweep? Man that thing is expensive. I just wonder how well it works. Do you know of anyone that has used one?? Keep up the good work. Sorry I couldnt answer your questions. Your post just made me very curious. I'd love to have something like this in my collection but I doubt if I myself would use it that much because I enjoy the challenge of picking so much. Have a good day. Riff :mrgreen:
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Magic1

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Post Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:21 pm

Re: Sweep frequency, electronic pick guns ....

Hi Riff,

I am not sure where I am going on this one. I started off with a basic idea, that all pins had to be struck at the same time and with the same amount of energy and that seemed to rule out the swinging needle guns that we both had built, because the needle describes an arc which means that the pins at the back of the lock get struck harder than those at the front. Also it is very difficult to hit all pins at the same time. Against my argument, is the fact that electric pick guns do work, at least on some locks.

An accurately cut bump key, theoretically hits all pins at the same time and with the same amount of energy, so I started to think about electrically raking the lock with the equivalent of a relatively slow moving bump key. In order to get the the Newton Theory transfer of energy from key pin to driver pin, we only need an acceleration of just over 1 G. That would be much slower than a swinging needle arm works. One problem is that each pin set is pressing down into the V of the key and with all pins doing this it adds up to what I call lock resistance .... or a finite amount of energy is required to push and pull the bump key in and out over a slightly longer distance than the pitch between two cuts on the key. As the raking action requires a slower speed, it would be possible to gear the motor speed down and in the process increase the available torque from the motor. I am also looking at using a solenoid as well as a motor. The sweep frequency generator is required for this too.

As much as I don't like the concept behind swinging needle guns, I do often wonder if they would be more efficient at slower speeds, so that is another thing I would like to look at. Then there is the pin set resonance that you mentioned, but I am not sure how to do it yet ... any ideas ?.

My thinking on the sweep frequency at the moment, is the only indication of what that frequency is .... is that it is the one that opens the lock. So to turn the whole thing on it's head , you wait until the lock opens and then note the frequency. As always it gets a bit more complicated because, if we are doing the 'picking' automatically then we also need to automate the torsion as well. So that means doing a whole range of sweeps with different torsion settings, to find out where the ball park is Hi!. I have no idea how security pins are going to effect this yet. Again I think they can only be dealt with automatically during the first strike, so maybe WHEN the torque is applied during that first strike may be an issue. If the timing is right then six security pins of any type, should not be a problem, providing the torsion is applied during the period the driver pins are above the shear line ..... up to the moment they pass the shear line on their way back down again. Using the micro- processor may make that timing possible.

Thank you for your reply ....

Sorry I did not answer your question about the Multi-pick equipment. I have only seen one review and it was said that the gun damaged the lock Hi!
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Riff

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Post Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:58 pm

Re: Sweep frequency, electronic pick guns ....

Magic1 wrote:Hi Riff,


As much as I don't like the concept behind swinging needle guns, I do often wonder if they would be more efficient at slower speeds, so that is another thing I would like to look at. Then there is the pin set resonance that you mentioned, but I am not sure how to do it yet ... any ideas ?


That alot to of info to digest magic. I'll take a closer look into the whole post a little later. But when you start talking about swinging needle guns at slower speeds, wouldnt that basically be a pick gun? (snap gun not electric) . Honestly I have no clue about the pin set resonance. I guess to start you would have to figure out what the resonance of what the materials the pins are made of....I dont know how to do that. You sound like you know what you are talking about. Maybe you would have to figure out exactly what the pins consist of and then somehow test it. I'm just throwing ideas out there. :mrgreen:
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abroxis

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Post Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:49 pm

Re: Sweep frequency, electronic pick guns ....

Multipick features up to 44,000 vibrations per minute

When they talk about vibrations per minute is that the same as strokes per minute?



============================================================
From Multipick

Our studies have shown that the optimal frequency of vibration needed to unlock cylinder locks vary from producer to producer. The reason for this is, among other things, that different producers use springs of different strength and pin tumblers of different weight in the production of their cylinder locks etc. (Physicists can surely explain this to you in smallest detail!).



Standard-Mode: Standard mode with high-speed performance (44,000 vibrations/min.)

Wobble-Mode: In this mode the frequency of the pick blade is constantly changing in ranges of 1/100 seconds. The switch-times between different frequencies are exactly adjustable by the use of a round controller and are sure to make the pins dance waltz ;-).This mode allows the picking of actually unpickable cylinder locks with extremely complicated pin sets.

Saving-Mode: 8 saving slots (4 are pre-programmed with fixed frequencies) allow the saving of successfully used frequencies. The 4 slots available for programming, allow repeated saving of frequencies as desired by the user.

Manual-mode: Stepless adjusting of frequency with the round frequency controller. The frequency to which the plug reacted will usually allow a quick opening of the lock. This optimal frequency can be stored using the save slots and then be used again for a repeated picking of the same type of locks.

Scan-mode: In Scan-Mode the MC automatically and systematically switches to all frequencies saved in the saving slots one after the other. The Scan-Mode can be interrupted at any moment to save the new optimal frequency.

High Capacity: The integration of new rechargeable cells of extra-high capacity provides the Multipick-Control with an even longer time of use, approx. + 4-5 hours
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Magic1

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Post Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:14 pm

Re: Sweep frequency, electronic pick guns ....

Yes it is and equates to 733.3 Hz, cycles or strokes per second. I think that the sweep generator would be capable of that, but probably not the pick gun it is powering. 44,000 RPM is a very high speed for a DC motor and certainly no power solenoid could move at that speed. An ultrasonic transducer could, but I do not think that ultrasonics are applicable in this application.

There is a little experiment that one can do to get a better idea of what happens. Put a marble or ball bearing in a cup and slowly move the cup up and down. Observe that the ball always stays in contact with the cup. Now slowly increase the speed of moving the cup up and down and at a specific speed the ball will start to chatter and that happens when the acceleration of the cup exceeds 1 G. The chatter happens because the cup is now moving faster under your power .... than the ball is under gravity. If we go too far beyond this point the cup going up will strike the ball coming down under the force of gravity ... and the ball starts to bounce or 'chatter'.

In the case of the tumbler lock it is 'mainly' the force of the spring forcing down the pin set, but if we exceed a certain acceleration the pins begin to bounce wildly, get out of phase with each other and it will be pure chance from that point on, if and when, ALL pins clear the shear line at the same time. Too fast is as bad as too slow. Mind you ... I could be totally wrong Hi!!
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abroxis

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Post Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Sweep frequency, electronic pick guns ....

Some of you may be interested on 2 threads about this tool

1) This thread discusses the mechanics of the gun and includes a couple of posts from the inventor of the controller.

http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4552


2) One of the owners of this gun stripped it down and did a photo shoot that may be of interest

http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4552

For those that never saw this here are 2 pdfs Multipick has on their gun and the controller.
multipick controler.pdf
multipick instruction.pdf
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