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Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

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.45cal

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Post Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:10 am

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

Sounds like an interesting project and I can't wait to see you put it int use.

Now I am going to go look at some demotivational posters to clear my brain of math and junk and hopefully get rid of this headache.
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elbowmacaroni

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Post Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

HallisChalmers wrote:
ChicoSlim803 wrote:LOL. just seems like a lot of work just to make it automated dont get me wrong I think it is a good idea but how would you hold this new TW. because wouldnt the vibration be absorbed through your hand?


Why? Chico - look at the man's link to his website! That explains quite a bit. I spent 5 minutes there reading some of his work and my head was spinning. :shock:

This gentleman is one of those unique individuals that doesn't stop with the question "Why?" - he has the type of inquisitive mind that asks "Why not - do it better".

You bring up a good point about Chico - about holding it. You're right.

Holding it in one's hand would theoretically vary the tension either by minuscule amounts or in tsunami waves of oscillation - depending on the mass of the individual's hand, and possible harmonics caused by the fundamental frequency of oscillation.

In other words, I thinking along the lines of a beat frequency oscillator - where the oscillator tunes to the desired correct frequency of oscillation/tension. You have to be able to "tune" the oscillator to determine whether the "opening" frequency is the sum or difference frequency.

Ay dios mio. My head hurts.
:?


Yeah, I looked at his site too! He sure ponders lots of stuff eh?
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elbowmacaroni

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Post Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:36 am

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

If you wanted to scale up and got air powered you could make one of these... http://hackaday.com/2009/05/03/steampunk-vibrator/
"Cave ab homine unius libri" - Beware of anyone who has just one book

(2014.02.09 - 23:26:03) huxleypig: i freaking love cream
(2014.02.09 - 23:27:11) huxleypig: hey, come on, cream is nice
(2014.02.09 - 23:27:37) huxleypig: aww, i suddenly feel very sick

(23:37:46) LocksmithArmy: you should see my school girl outfit
(23:37:50) LocksmithArmy: wait... what

(13:19:50) xeo: that chick will never be satisfied by a real dick
(13:19:54) NNFAK: I would man...

(22:59:49) PhoneMan: how do you let a forum die if users keep using it? kill the servers?

May those who love us, love us; and those who don't love us, may God turn their hearts; and if He doesn't turn their hearts, may he turn their ankles so we'll know them by their limping

If someone had prince albert in a can, does that mean they'd have a killer codpiece?

(00:52:02) WolfSpring: elbow could sell a sandbox to an egyptian
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Magic1

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Post Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:52 am

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

"In other words, I thinking along the lines of a beat frequency oscillator - where the oscillator tunes to the desired correct frequency of oscillation/tension. You have to be able to "tune" the oscillator to determine whether the "opening" frequency is the sum or difference frequency."

I had a think about this and wondered how it could be applied to locks. I have used the basic superhetrodyne principle to treat Trigeminal neuralgia pain (the most painful condition know to man). which manifests itself on the gum and head. It is a difficult area to apply electronic stimulation, because so many nerves are concentrated there. One solution is that put forward by Hallis. An electronic signal is fed up each arm at about 10 KHz, but differing in frequency by about 100 Hz. They mix at the gum electrode and produce a difference signal of 100 Hz. And this disables the nerve pain trigger points on the gum.

A similar thing occurs with vibration on a mechanical body and that gives us the beat frequency Hallis mentions. Theoretically it may be possible to 'influence' the pin sets from outside of the lock using two vibration generators. I have seen a single vibration source used to open intelligent locks and completely bypass the electronic side. I have never seen the Beat Frequency Oscillator principle applied to lock opening, but that means nothing. If you think about the opera singer and the shattered glass it would work with sound too.
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dgtlcrack

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Post Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:03 am

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

See now you are going off the charts here with "let me make it better". I'm a pretty new school cat but very old school when it comes to picking locks or manipulating safes and one thing I can tell you for sure is nothing beats the feel of the human hand. If you automate it, like the vibrating picks you'll have no feel of the pins inside the lock, just like you'll have no feel on an automated vibrating tension wrench when you are pushing a spooled or mushroom top pin back up into the chamber. See without feeling it in your tension, you'll never know which bottom pin is trapped by a mushroomed top pin.
So in theory because you are new and you want to get good, do what every body else does and practice, this is the art of picking locks.
Bruce Lee didn't invent jeet kun do until he first mastered kung fu, perhaps you should master picking locks first and fully understanding the theories behind the art of picking locks before you bum rush the useless inventions and waste your time.
*- Digital Crack -*
"You want my knowledge, my answers, well you're going to get it the way I give it to you: with a grain of salt, logic, and nearly sarcastic common sense.... unless you are willing to pay, then I'll shut the hell up and you can be the boss"
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dgtlcrack

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Post Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:13 am

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

Unless your goal is to invent picks to open kwikset locks. Here's my list of things before I invent something for locksmiths... If it competes with a bump key, rethink your strategy.
*- Digital Crack -*
"You want my knowledge, my answers, well you're going to get it the way I give it to you: with a grain of salt, logic, and nearly sarcastic common sense.... unless you are willing to pay, then I'll shut the hell up and you can be the boss"
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bouncer965

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Post Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:48 am

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

dgtlcrack wrote:See now you are going off the charts here with "let me make it better". I'm a pretty new school cat but very old school when it comes to picking locks or manipulating safes and one thing I can tell you for sure is nothing beats the feel of the human hand. If you automate it, like the vibrating picks you'll have no feel of the pins inside the lock, just like you'll have no feel on an automated vibrating tension wrench when you are pushing a spooled or mushroom top pin back up into the chamber. See without feeling it in your tension, you'll never know which bottom pin is trapped by a mushroomed top pin.
So in theory because you are new and you want to get good, do what every body else does and practice, this is the art of picking locks.
Bruce Lee didn't invent jeet kun do until he first mastered kung fu, perhaps you should master picking locks first and fully understanding the theories behind the art of picking locks before you bum rush the useless inventions and waste your time.


Had to laugh at that. I wonder how many people had that opinion when someone suggested making an EPG and that it was a stupid idea and would never work? Probably a fair few, yet an EPG could probably be found in most locksmiths toolkits.

Plus i know a bit about Magic1 and he is a very intellectual fellow who obviously enjoys putting his theories into practice and from what i know, with great success. i think you'll also find that a lot of inventions over history were actually invented by people that could come up with an idea and make it work and had no relation to the idea they invented.

I say if the guy is looking at doing something like this which could eventually work then fair play to him. Its people lie him that make the world what it is today.
[“A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.”.

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Solomon

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Post Mon Apr 12, 2010 12:45 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

I think what bouncer is trying to say is...

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bouncer965

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Post Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:15 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

Solomon wrote:I think what bouncer is trying to say is...

Image


Yeah i think you may have a point on that :D :D
[“A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.”.

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dgtlcrack

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Post Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:02 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

bouncer965 wrote:
dgtlcrack wrote:See now you are going off the charts here with "let me make it better". I'm a pretty new school cat but very old school when it comes to picking locks or manipulating safes and one thing I can tell you for sure is nothing beats the feel of the human hand. If you automate it, like the vibrating picks you'll have no feel of the pins inside the lock, just like you'll have no feel on an automated vibrating tension wrench when you are pushing a spooled or mushroom top pin back up into the chamber. See without feeling it in your tension, you'll never know which bottom pin is trapped by a mushroomed top pin.
So in theory because you are new and you want to get good, do what every body else does and practice, this is the art of picking locks.
Bruce Lee didn't invent jeet kun do until he first mastered kung fu, perhaps you should master picking locks first and fully understanding the theories behind the art of picking locks before you bum rush the useless inventions and waste your time.


Had to laugh at that. I wonder how many people had that opinion when someone suggested making an EPG and that it was a stupid idea and would never work? Probably a fair few, yet an EPG could probably be found in most locksmiths toolkits.

Plus i know a bit about Magic1 and he is a very intellectual fellow who obviously enjoys putting his theories into practice and from what i know, with great success. i think you'll also find that a lot of inventions over history were actually invented by people that could come up with an idea and make it work and had no relation to the idea they invented.

I say if the guy is looking at doing something like this which could eventually work then fair play to him. Its people lie him that make the world what it is today.


See don't get me confused, of course electronic pick guns work, but the locks they work on suck anyway. And I'm not putting down the person, just the idea. I'm just speaking from a realistic perspective, what is the point of a vibrating tension wrench? There are absolutely no benefits from it, especially when progressing into spooled, mushroomed, serrated, or high security. And this is just my opinion, and I've been a locksmith and picking locks for a very long time. And you shouldn't laugh at what I wrote because I have a point. With every invention and idea there are two simplified views on it, positive and negative. And from a scientific or inventors view point a negative perspective isn't a bad thing, it might help him re-create or make his idea better in the end. But in the real world the feasibility or usefulness is a gimmick at most. Just my two cents and worth mentioning. And it's ok if you don't like me telling him I think it's pointless because you are probably taking it personal, to me it's just about commenting on the idea itself, I'm not here to make the guy feel bad.
*- Digital Crack -*
"You want my knowledge, my answers, well you're going to get it the way I give it to you: with a grain of salt, logic, and nearly sarcastic common sense.... unless you are willing to pay, then I'll shut the hell up and you can be the boss"
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geardog32

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Post Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:41 am

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

http://www.i-hacked.com/content/view/138/48/

scroll down a little bit and there seems to be something like your talking about.
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barbarian

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Post Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:09 am

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

Nice find geardog32.

That is pretty much the item..

Figure 11.
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Magic1

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Post Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:30 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

If one was crazy enough to want to make a vibrating torsion tool .... get an old key to fit the key way of the test lock and cut it in half along the length of the key. This will lose you the hole in the bow, so drill a new one and shape the bow as in the picture, there is one groove left on the opposite side. Find a length of studding that will pass through the hole you have drilled and two nuts to fit it. Secure the studding to the new key bow, with a nut on either side (note. anti-vibration nut's will be required). You can now tape the phone vibrator to the other end of the studding to give you a torsion to your taste.

The vibrator motors are designed to run off 3.3 volts and this will produce a too powerful vibration, so you will need to add a variable resistor in series with the battery and motor, this will also give you a variable speed (frequency) control.

I am guessing, but I think to start with one should aim at no more than about 1 - 2 mm deflection, when controlled by the finger. It basically amount to a controlled 'ripple' on top of the torsion applied by the finger. Obviously the patent assumes the finger to be redundant, so you can always find something else for it to do.

If you get bored you can always tape the vibrator onto something else, switch to high power and contemplate human failings at your leisure .....
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jondoe

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Post Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

Is there any more progress on this? It sounds like a very interesting idea and I would love to know it works.
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clodester

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Post Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:26 am

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

Would the process of fine tuning the osculations to correct levels be too difficult in terms of time? Each lock is different and even locks of the same model differ in spring stiffness, lock lube, age, micro stresses in the lock body etc....each of these alter its optimum osculating level. You could do the maths on paper but you'd need specs of the lock which are only knowable by engineering lab test and even then you'd need a mathematician, a materials engineer and a week or so to work out the frequency.....Clearly this is impractical SO you make the vibrating wrench variable which means you'd have a range of frequencies you can cycle through each new lock you use it on. You simple make a note somewhere of the lock, model etc and its workable frequency. Even then it would take a while to find the hz when taking on a new lock, and in the meantime any decent lock picker would have opened the lock anyway.

I do however love the romantic idea of, love the maths and engineering of it all and fully support your mantra of "why not". I have fabricated a number of devices some useful some pointless and many non-working because of the very same philosophy!

Good luck
And may the Hz be with you!
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