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Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

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Magic1

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Post Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:41 pm

Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

Before I picked my first Yale clone lock, I watched my hands one day. I am right handed so I had the torsion wrench in my left hand ... and it wasn't moving !. Now everyone tells me that you have to continuously relax and increase tension, which helps clear those pins that are 'almost' in shear. OK I am a newbie so my newbie mind asks the question ...how many times a minute ... or a second ..... am I supposed to do this and is there an optimum rate ?. If there exists an optimum rate how can I measure what it is ?. Some might have a guess at the answer, but who has actually measured the optimum frequency ?. How about once per second ?. Or how about 100 times per second ?. We have too have a starting point, so I will say that 100 times a second would be much better than once per second. Next someone is going to say why do we need to do this anyway ... and the answer is for automatic lock opening, where the time taken to go through every combination of frequency, pressure, pulse width etc., for the tension wrench and again the same for opening process may take longer than 24 hours to get through the complete sequence ... which a micro-processor can handle ... but a human finger cannot.

There used to be a poster about how tight, to tighten a nut. It showed a spanner at a certain angle and by the side of it the word "Tight", about 90 degrees in advance of this was another spanner and beside it the word "Shear". So The joke was "how do you know when a nut is tight ... just take it up to shear and then slacken it off a quarter of a turn !"

The relevant question is when you relax torsion, how much do you do it by ?. The logical answer is until the pins start to drop out of shear ... and then back a little bit !. Now that will sound crazy but .... it is something a micro-processor can do often, to find out the minimum amount of torsion required to keep all captured pins in shear. Sure they drop out but the micro-processor knows exactly where it was at that moment and can return the lock to that condition.

Your thoughts .... ?
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ChicoSlim803

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Post Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:35 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

are you high? nah i think that would be plausible but why is my question
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Magic1

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Post Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:09 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

About 5' 10". Why not ?.
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ChicoSlim803

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Post Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:12 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

LOL. just seems like a lot of work just to make it automated dont get me wrong I think it is a good idea but how would you hold this new TW. because wouldnt the vibration be absorbed through your hand?
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HallisChalmers

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Post Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:30 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

ChicoSlim803 wrote:LOL. just seems like a lot of work just to make it automated dont get me wrong I think it is a good idea but how would you hold this new TW. because wouldnt the vibration be absorbed through your hand?


Why? Chico - look at the man's link to his website! That explains quite a bit. I spent 5 minutes there reading some of his work and my head was spinning. :shock:

This gentleman is one of those unique individuals that doesn't stop with the question "Why?" - he has the type of inquisitive mind that asks "Why not - do it better".

You bring up a good point about Chico - about holding it. You're right.

Holding it in one's hand would theoretically vary the tension either by minuscule amounts or in tsunami waves of oscillation - depending on the mass of the individual's hand, and possible harmonics caused by the fundamental frequency of oscillation.

In other words, I thinking along the lines of a beat frequency oscillator - where the oscillator tunes to the desired correct frequency of oscillation/tension. You have to be able to "tune" the oscillator to determine whether the "opening" frequency is the sum or difference frequency.

Ay dios mio. My head hurts.
:?
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Magic1

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Post Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:33 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

Chico has two very valid points. I will try and address them. The first is it may indeed seem a lot of effort to automate any process, but something special happens in the process. To begin with we assume that we know how things work, but it is not until we try to replicate an 'action' that we find out how little we do know. If we can automate, then we understand, and can take back some of that understanding into the manual process.

Yes the hand will absorb some of the vibration, but again it is more complex than that. Let's have a look at a real world source of vibration, one you may have on your person right now. The photo shows a 12 mm diameter vibration motor from a mobile phone. It is simply a 3 volt DC motor fitted with an eccentric weight. If you check with EBAY you will find that they are available in the following diameters, 25mm, 16mm, 12mm, 6mm and 4mm !. So there are sizes that can be actually fitted into a pick handle, or onto a torque wrench. The simplest electrical pick gun is one of these motors taped to the wrong end of a pick I am not suggesting that there would be any gain in doing this, because on it's own, it would be only a very small part of a solution. As soon as we introduce the rotating motor, frequency, displacement and acceleration come into the picture and what you also need is a sweep frequency generator with independently variable pulse width modulation. Sounds complicated but it isn't.

A starting point would be to canabalise a vibration motor from an old mobile telephone , connect it up to 3 volts DC and 'have a play'. 'Playing' is a very important R & D tool, and many great inventions started off as rubber bands, paper clips and a 'stupid' question. Einstein said that to be an inventor all you need is imagination and a pile of junk :D .
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the lockpickkid

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Post Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:53 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

I can actually see how this could work, to me it seems very plausible. I very my tension alot while I pick, sometimes you can see the wrench flex back and forth while I pick, to me it helps to set the pins and let others drop if I overset. The vibrating wrench may also have similar effects as that of an EPG, it may even work better, you never know until you try.
I have been in the souls of many women, but I always end up on the soles of there shoes.
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ChicoSlim803

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Post Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:43 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

touché Magic. i didnt realize how small those get so according to the info you just provided and the image i have that should be hard at all to hold. I am going to do what Hallis has already done if i dont find the questions i have for you there i will be back to ask them.
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Warder

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Post Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:46 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

Oscillating tension....

from the miniature motor attached to a spring. Someone here had (from the inside of a pen?) springs tensioning, if I remember correctly.
Could these two systems be combined?
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ChicoSlim803

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Post Mon Mar 01, 2010 6:13 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

the more i read and the more i think the more your idea is tainting my mind.
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Magic1

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Post Mon Mar 01, 2010 8:28 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

Just to provide a starting point I will design a box of electronics tricks that will provide a pulse train, with 0 - 100% pulse width (power control) and a frequency range of 1 Hz - 40,000 Hz. I think it has to be micro-processor controlled, so that it can be easily programmed to do specific tasks. The same box of tricks will be able to drive sweep frequency pick guns, introduced in another theme and also any kind of rotary motor or solenoid driven rake guns or vibrators.

The generator will be able to generate spot frequencies and have the ability to sweep over pre-programmed frequency bands. OK that is the start point and now you chaps have to start thinking and work out what else is required in the design. For example it takes a motor a finite time to reach a certain RPM or frequency and you may decide that you want to add a dwell to each frequency step.

A sweep ends when the lock opens. I will provide a liquid crystal display, that will screen all the machine parameters at the time the lock opens. Probably the easiest way of detecting unlock, is to use an LED opto device to detect, the unlock movement of the torque wrench. Since lock opening time is a measure of the efficiency of a test, I will include an electronic stop watch function to measure the time to unlock, in milli-seconds. Since I don't know in advance what ideas you experts are going to come up with, I will make the machine capable of switching 20 amps at say 50 volts.

Has anyone found out yet if the HPC Flipit gun uses a motor or a solenoid and does it have a swinging arm or linear output ?.
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Magic1

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Post Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:09 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

Hi Chicoslim,

The best way to get a feel for the vibration from the vibrator motor and how it distributes itself when in the hand, would be to actually hold it yourself. I bought a little web cam this morning to see if it would do lock video's and have made a short video of a vibration motor taped to the end on a pick. If nothing else it does illustrate that even a small motor has oodles of power and that the power level would have to be greatly reduced for use on a vibrating torsion wrench. I only taped it onto the pick because it was at hand. As you can see in the video, where the pick is gripped with the thumb and forefinger acts as a fulcrum. I am holding it well forward of the motor and the vibration is attenuated not only by my hand but also the distance from my grip to the motor in comparison to the distance from my grip to the tip of the pick. It would be possible to mechanically decouple the hand from the vibrating element, but that would also attenuate the sense of touch. The idea of a vibrating torsion wrench really goes back to the test jig I am making for measuring rake efficiency.

One not so obvious advantage is that vibration acts as a 'lubricant' and allows small physical moves to be made smoothly. For example picking binding pins tends to give a rough jerky action, at least it does for me,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4sgYK8143s
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Solomon

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Post Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:02 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

This is a cool idea. One issue though, the weight of the motor itself will apply a pretty significant amount of tension... so the way in which you control it with your fingers will be different than normal. Not really a big deal, but it'd take some getting used to! I'm not too fond of the idea of buzzy fingers after a picking session either though, lol.
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Warder

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Post Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:28 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

I'm not too fond of the idea of buzzy fingers after a picking session either though, lol.


....but your girlfriend would be!



I just couldn't resist, please forgive me. :)
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ChicoSlim803

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Post Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:38 pm

Re: Vibrating torsion wrenches ?.

You know I think it will work im with Solomon it will be wierd to hold at first but should be able to get use to though.

by the way dont forget sound. it was not needed for this but just my opinion for future vids
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