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[shadowlock]

Okay guys,

Thought I'd post my progress up til now. Have I opened my first safe lock??? Wellll...?....kind of...sort of....LOL....I'm actually not sure...I'll let you guys be the judges....Also, if anyone can tell me what I did wrong I'd really appreciate the help.

First, let me recap a little. If you look at the graphs above this post you'll notice that I have already made a couple of graphs. If you look at the one marked (incorrectly) AWR Graph 2 today, you will see that in the area of 47-50 there appears to be a gate. If you look at the other graphs you'll see where I did an amplification of that area and determined that 50 may be one of the numbers to the combination. I was having some trouble around this time and asked for lots of help, which I was promptly given by all of you (Thanks again btw).

Next if you'll look below this post you'll see more graphs that Mike, Mike, and Daggers helped me with. I did these tonight, and I started with a Hi/Low test for number R50. I believe the test showed that Wheel 3 was indicating R50. Cool! No prob so far.

So, then I started Graph #2 1&2 AR/W3 @ R50.......On this graph I noticed that number 25 might be an area of interest....So I amplified this area (see graph) and found what I believed was another number in the combo. R24.5

HERE'S THE PROBLEM......I did a Hi/Low test and if you look at the test sheet you'll see that Wheel #1 was showing to be the wider wheel thus being W1 @ R24.5

So far so good right?....not exactly....So, now I have W3-50 and W1-24.5 I'm racking my brain trying to figure out how to make Graph#3 for Wheel 2 so that I can get the last number in the combo. I cant figure it out and I'm just playing with the two numbers that I do have.....50, and 24.5

Finally, I'm entering combos L-R-L, R-L-R etc just thinking of what I did wrong or how can I find the last number....I know if I have the first # and the second # I can BF the last number, but I'm missing the number in the middle....or so I thought....

I dialed L50-R24.5-L50 and the lock opened!!!.......I have not looked at the Official Combo yet....I still have it in my wallet....Not sure what I did, or didn't do that caused this....

How is it that the Hi/Lo test showed 24.5 to be wheel number 1 but ended up being the 2nd number in the combo??
When there's 2 numbers that are the same how do you know that???.....I had no idea when I found number 50...it was actually the 1st and 3rd number.

I'd love to hear any thoughts, advice and explanations to this problem.

Now that I have a working number for the lock, I'm not sure what to do next??? I have a La Gard I guess I can start on as well....It's not a cutaway though....And I didn't use the cutaway to cheat other than when I was parking W3 @ 50 while graphing wheels 1&2. I would check to make sure I was spinning the last wheel in the right direction. I can tell how it can get confusing with a lock that's not a cutaway to get your directions mixed up. Takes some focus. I gotta hand it to you guys....Manipulating is definitely on a different level from picking P&T locks. Lots of fun!!!

Thanks guys,
Rick

[jharveee]

Well If you were asking me,...............Winner Winner chicken Dinner!
I'd surely take it as An "Opening".
Great Job!

Nice to see your work paying off.

[LockManipulator]

I'm racking my brain trying to figure out how to make Graph#3 for Wheel 2 so that I can get the last number in the combo.

When you have 2 of the numbers, you just brute force the last one. Of course, you can graph if you want, it can give some useful info. Turn wheel 1 to it's #, wheel 2 to the first # being tested, and then wheel 3 to it's number. Take contact readings, Then pick up wheel 3 and wheel 2 and put wheel 2 on the second # being tested. Spin the other way and put wheel 3 on it's #. Wheel one never has to move until you get to it where it's sitting. Then you have to reset it as you move wheel 2 past it. Of course, in this example it turned out that the 24.5 was on wheel 2 not 1.

I know if I have the first # and the second # I can BF the last number, but I'm missing the number in the middle

The last # just means the only # in the combination you don't have. It can be the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd # in the combo.

How is it that the Hi/Lo test showed 24.5 to be wheel number 1 but ended up being the 2nd number in the combo??

High low tests are weird. When throwing each wheel 10 increments off to test it, did you put the 3rd wheel on it's known gate at 50? Not doing that messes up a high/low test sometimes because wheel 3 will be interfering. Also, I prefer to use wheel isolation now instead of high/low test. Usually better, but not always.

When there's 2 numbers that are the same how do you know that???

It's hard. I just had this happen to me on my Diebold but the way I approached it was isolate wheel 3, after I found a gate I isolated wheel 2. To isolate wheel 2, I put wheel 1 on the same spot as wheel 3 so when the second wheel reached it's gate, the lock opened. Kinda luck I guess. If I had approached this with AWL instead, I probably would've been confused and then switched to isolate wheel 2 and figured out what was happening, but would've taken longer. Don't just stick with one thing and wonder why it didn't work when not if, something goes wrong with it. Who says you can't isolate each wheel? And try it again but with the non-isolated wheels in a different spot (i.e. forbidden zone, a known gate if you have one, etc). You can also repeat the wheel isolation process but with different rotation. There are hours of different things you can do if you're creative enough and one of them will get you the information that you need

I would say to keep the combination on this one for a while, Oldfast is right when he says that much can be learned with a known combo. In fact I would go as far as to say that more can be learned that way. With an unknown combo, you learn frustration and maybe the combination too in the end. When you know the combo, you begin to understand why a lock indicated a certain way, what to do next time in a situation like that, and new insight into how to overcome problems when you don't know exactly what's wrong. Make different graphs and study them to understand the why's and how's of a lock. I would do a graph of wheels 1 & 2 in the forbidden zone while spinning wheel 3 around. Both directions. Then wheel 2, then wheel 1. After that, (i'm sure he gate on wheel 3 will show itself) put wheel 3 on it's gate at 50 and isolate wheel 2 around right. Then isolate wheel 1. I spent so many hours making countless graphs when I was starting out! But now, I don't usually need to graph. It takes a lot of hard work but you also get a lot out of it Learning to safecrack takes a lot of time and patience. You have to be willing to spend hours upon hours on one lock that you know the combo to. It'll get easier... until you hit 2M's and Group 1's lol Keep in there, you're doing great so far!

[shadowlock]

Thanks Jharveee I appreciate the comments.

@ Daggers.....Thanks....I think the biggest part of your comments that are going to help me is the part where you say be creative. Up until this very moment I was stuck on the thoughts that I had to stick to the exact formulas and not deviate. Now that I've heard you say to attack problems from different points of view. I can relax a little.

I need more practice isolating individual wheels and I'm sure I'll be picking your brains a little more on that subject.

Hi Low test are used to tell which wheel the gate you found is located on? Correct? I don't understand how you replace the hi/low test with isolation. Maybe you can do a post of how this works etc...

Thanks again
Rick

[LockManipulator]

Think of it like this, when doing AWL or AWR, there's a gate signature because one of the wheel's gate is under the fence. Let's say wheel 2 in this case and at the number 25 as with your lock. If you put wheels 2&3 in the forbidden zone and just run wheel 1 through the area (I just do w1 @ 20, then w1 @ 25) there won't be a drop. Make sure to put wheels 2&3 back in the forbidden zone after moving wheel 1 though. Same with wheel 3, no drop. But if you have w1&3 in the forbidden zone and put wheel 2 at 20, then 25, there will be a drop. This means the gate is on w2 because it is the only wheel moving through the area. It's the only wheel that could cause the graph to change. Although, it's best to use the lowest area instead of the forbidden zone. So, in your case, I would have the other 2 wheels at 5 while running isolation tests. Usually, the first number to indicate is wheel 3 so I always isolate wheel 3 first, then wheel 2, then wheel 1. Wheel isolation also works well in the very beginning instead of AWL, you put w1&2 in forbidden zone (because we don't know the low areas at this point) and run w3 around by itself. This way, you don't need to do hi/low test or more isolation to figure out which wheel a gate is on. If one appears, it's wheel 3. All you have to do is find the gate center. This method has some error though. If wheel 2 or 1 reads first, then that's time wasted. Does this make sense to you?

[shadowlock]

It does make some sense, Daggers. I have to get home and try it again with my cutaway, so that I can see what your talking about. If it's more efficient and eliminates some of the work and time then I'm all for it. However, I would like to be able to do it the long way before I start learning the shortcuts. That way if I run into any problems I can always go back to the basics.

Thanks
Rick

[Mikeh727]

Okay guys,

Thought I'd post my progress up til now. Have I opened my first safe lock??? Wellll...?....kind of...sort of....LOL....I'm actually not sure...I'll let you guys be the judges....Also, if anyone can tell me what I did wrong I'd really appreciate the help.

Great job Rick. Open is open!

First, it looks to me like you're really getting the hang of this. You're moving two wheels together with right rotation and putting your third wheel on your known gate with the same rotation. I know it was discussed earlier in the thread, but actually doing it is great to see. That took me a little while to figure out and seeing you do it this early on is great...it shows that you've got a pretty good grasp on the way the wheels interact.

Same with your Hi/Low tests. You know which wheels are where and not dialing in full combinations when they are not needed. One trick to speeding up the high/low tests even further is to test W3 first, then W2, and finally W1. Sit down and try it...it will take fewer rotations of the dial and it's a good exercise to keep track of the wheels.

As for Hi/Low tests...

They suck.

Why? As you've discovered, they are not always accurate. They do work in most cases, but sometimes they give you very little indication, or a wrong indication about which wheel you're gate is on. The idea behind hi/low testing is to find the reading which goes bad (compared to the others) as the gate is moved away from the fence. But due to variations in the wheels, it's possible that you'll get unlucky and find a high spot on one or two wheels that throws off your readings even when the gate is below the fence. More of a problem is the effects of rotating the 'off' wheels in a different direction than you used to find the gate originally. Go back to your AWL graph on the first page and look at the areas around 15 and 35. I know, not the perfect graph, but assuming that it was at least somewhat accurate, those areas are both roughly the same or slightly higher than where you found your gate at 24.5. And, there is no real indication at 24.5. It's likely that due to the direction of rotation you essentially blocked your gate from view with the hi/low tests. I know, this is clear as mud and I know I could probably explain it better, but instead, go take a look at this post by Oldfast, who did an outstanding job of explaining the differences that you encounter by spinning different directions.

viewtopic.php?f=100&t=7432&start=135#p81970

This is why I don't like hi/low tests and like Jared mentioned, prefer to isolate wheels to determine which gate they are on instead. I think everyone probably does this a little differently but his methods work great.

So far so good right?....not exactly....So, now I have W3-50 and W1-24.5 I'm racking my brain trying to figure out how to make Graph#3 for Wheel 2 so that I can get the last number in the combo. I cant figure it out and I'm just playing with the two numbers that I do have.....50, and 24.5

Like Jared pointed out, once you have two numbers of the combination, you don't need to graph the third. You can just brute force combinations on the unknown wheel until the lock opens. However, it wouldn't be a terrible idea to graph while you are looking for that last number. Why? Well what happens if the lock doesn't open? Why didn't it open? You might be able to gather information from that final graph that you would have missed without the graph.

When there's 2 numbers that are the same how do you know that???.....I had no idea when I found number 50...it was actually the 1st and 3rd number.

The lock will let you know eventually! You usually find one number at a time based on how the lock indicates. When you have two numbers at the same place, you won't necessarily know it until later in the manipulation. And that doesn't matter one bit! You'll find it as you move on.

Don't just stick with one thing and wonder why it didn't work when not if, something goes wrong with it. Who says you can't isolate each wheel? And try it again but with the non-isolated wheels in a different spot (i.e. forbidden zone, a known gate if you have one, etc). You can also repeat the wheel isolation process but with different rotation. There are hours of different things you can do if you're creative enough and one of them will get you the information that you need

This statement is so true! As you progress, you'll discover that the 'standard' procedures don't always work the way you want. You'll have to figure out a different way to get the information that you need. The more manipulations you do, the more 'tricks' you'll learn. I say tricks, but really it's just different techniques to read the lock. A lot of guys here refer to that as 'having more tools in your toolbox'. The more tools you have the better, and you'll learn along the way which tool is right for different situations.

I can tell how it can get confusing with a lock that's not a cutaway to get your directions mixed up. Takes some focus.

I recently picked up a lock that spins so smoothly that you can't feel the wheels pick up. Up until that point I had been working with locks where you could feel the pickup points very distinctly. I had learned to rely on the feel of the lock rather than thinking about where I was in the wheelpack. As a result, I kept getting lost when I was dialing! It humbled me, and I started to concentrate more on keeping track of where I was when I was spinning, and what each wheel was doing. It's not incredibly difficult but yes it takes some focus. Your cutaway lock is a great tool for determining how the wheels interact.

Great work Rick! I'd see if you can get the combination changed on that lock and try it again.

Cheers!

Mike

[shadowlock]

Mike,

Thanks for the great comments!!! I think that I could prob write a book too from all the comments that were shared in this post. You guys have great information. I will more than likely re-read all of the comments several more times until I develop skills. As for my cutaway, it actually belongs to a lockie buddy of mine. Thanks for the great idea, I will call him in a few days and ask him to change the numbers. Excellent idea. The La Gard series 1800 that I have is a "Frankenstein" according to my lockie buddy. He said that the guy who gave it to me had a bunch of spare parts and just put it together and gave it to me. The wheel has areas that feel "Sticky" for lack of a better term. It will be easy to spin, then hard. I think I'll just stick with the cutaway.

Thanks to everyone for helping me. It was very fun!!! And it only took me a WEEK! LOL.....I'm sure most of you guys would have done it in 5-10 mins.

Anyway, I'll post any further progress,

Rick