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[shadowlock]

Guys,

Thanks....All good info. At least I'm heading in the right direction. So far I've learned that taking exact readings is important and is a skill that improves with practice. Reading and or interpreting what the graph is telling you is also important. I only saw the 47-50 area on my graph. But you guys were able to see the 80 and 85 on there. Once I took a closer look I also saw that there might be something to those numbers as well. Very interesting!

And as for the exercise that you mentioned Oldfast, I will absolutely do another graph tonight and see if it matches up. Excellent idea.

Daggers, I will also amplify the areas you mentioned and see how that turns out. I will let you know how it goes.

Thanks for the advice,
Rick

[shadowlock]

Oldfast,

I didn't answer your last questions. But yes, I am using the cutaway from my previous post. And as for the brand or model #, I have no idea. LOL. It is a lock that my lockie buddy gave me and there was no mention of a brand of dial/lock. Also, I just remembered something; when I get to a CP it clicks when contact is made and it also gives an ever so slight push back. Not sure if you can understand that. I'm not sure if it's just me pushing too hard against the CP and causing it to go up the slope and then it slides back off the nose to it's resting spot. Has this ever happened to you?

I am also wondering about something else.....the national safe guide article that I read said for me to do something called working the fence....it says to ocsillate inbetween both contact points so that the CP's will settle to their resting spot. Do you all do this, and if you do when you work the dial back and forth between the contact points; do you actually hit both points making the clicking noise, or do you just go back and forth inbetween both CP's without actually touching them??

Thanks,
Rick

[Mikeh727]

Hey Rick,

I don't have a whole lot to add to what Oldfst and Daggers already told you except that I agree with them, especially regarding the area near 80. What I see there is that huge drop, but when I look at both graphs together, I see another low spot between 85 and 90, so I would concentrate on the area between 80 and 90. I'm not sure what, but something seems to be going on in there! Assuming your spinning AWR,I'd back up and start at 75 and work towards 90 one increment at a time. If you don't find anything, try AWL starting at about 90 back to 75.

Another option is to isolate W3 and take that through the area. The assumption is that W3 will indicate first (NOT a guarantee). Try W2 if W3 doesn't indicate anything. If I was going to do that, I'd park W1 and W2 at R47 (the other point that looks low on your AWR graph) and run W3 through with left rotation. For W2, park W1 and W3 at L27.5 (the only place I see that looks sort of low on the AWL graph) and run W2 with right rotation.

I'm revealing a purely personal preference here with running the wheels through in isolation. Running a single wheel will eliminate the need for a high/low test to determine which wheel the gate is on. I hate high/low tests!

Also, I just remembered something; when I get to a CP it clicks when contact is made and it also gives an ever so slight push back. Not sure if you can understand that. I'm not sure if it's just me pushing too hard against the CP and causing it to go up the slope and then it slides back off the nose to it's resting spot. Has this ever happened to you?

Makes perfect sense and yes, that happens quite often. Take the back off of the lock, set up a mirror so you can see the lever and the contact points, and watch what happens when you're feeling that pushback. It is very slight, and it is due to you riding up the point a bit and then backing off. It doesn't matter where you read the point as long as you do it in the same place EVERY time. The key is consistency. I have one lock that does this pretty dramatically on the RCP. You'll develop a feel after practicing that will tell you where you are making contact initially so you don't ride up the point.

I am also wondering about something else.....the national safe guide article that I read said for me to do something called working the fence....it says to ocsillate inbetween both contact points so that the CP's will settle to their resting spot. Do you all do this, and if you do when you work the dial back and forth between the contact points; do you actually hit both points making the clicking noise, or do you just go back and forth inbetween both CP's without actually touching them??

What page in the manual? I have it and can look at the context to be sure I answer correctly. I don't do this while taking readings at all, but I do oscillate like that when I'm brute forcing the final number (usually the first number) to try and coax the fence to drop into the gates. If you are just a tiny bit off on one of your numbers, the fence might not drop in. The idea here is to almost 'bump' the fence into the gates. And it works. I have had this happen just twice, but I wouldn't have opened the lock without doing this. I ran the combination and then went back to the drop in area (hitting the LCP) and nothing happened, but I usually 'slap' that left point a couple of times when I get there. Both times on the second slap, the lock opened.

Great work so far Rick, keep it up! And keep the questions coming.

-Mike

[LockManipulator]

I am also wondering about something else.....the national safe guide article that I read said for me to do something called working the fence....it says to ocsillate inbetween both contact points so that the CP's will settle to their resting spot. Do you all do this, and if you do when you work the dial back and forth between the contact points; do you actually hit both points making the clicking noise, or do you just go back and forth inbetween both CP's without actually touching them??

Thanks,
Rick

Sometimes the contact points can change up to half an increment or more because the lever has to "settle". I think it just gets stuck at times and oscillating back and for between both contact points lets it fall to it's lowest point. When this happens, I hit both contact points.

[shadowlock]

Okay,

First, thanks for all the great responses! I am going to try everything mentioned in this post by Mike, Mike, and Daggers. I'll let you know how it goes. It was on page 19 of that manual , about half way down on the right side where it is telling you how to find the drop in point and find the CP's that is says to oscillate between the two points. If I'm reading it incorrectly or taking it out of context please let me know. I think I have enough answers to do a little more "homework" on my graph before moving on to the next step.

Thanks,
Rick

[Mikeh727]

Rick,

I believe that the paragraph your talking about is simply an exercise to get the feel of the contact points and the fence riding back down on the wheel pack. I don't do that for readings, although Daggers has a point about the lever settling. I haven't experienced this with any of my locks but can see where it could be a factor.

-Mike

[shadowlock]

Ok cool. I'll just do it the way everyone else does. I don't want to do anything that might cause even the slightest movement.

Thanks Mike,

Rick

[shadowlock]

Okay

So I did what Oldfast recommended. I did a 2nd graph of AWR to see if it matches the one I did yesterday. Look for yourself. Big pieces of it are really different, BUT, look at 47-50....almost exactly the same as the one I did yesterday. And I didn't look or compare graphs at all. Not even once!!! Cool!!! There are a couple of other areas of interest and I'd like to hear any thoughts on the possibilities.

Also, I amplified from 45-52 in single increments, however, I believe I may have done it incorrectly. Question: If my graph is made by starting with AWR does that mean that I also have to amplify starting with AWR??? Because I amplified with AWL. From what I've read everyone mostly does everything beginning with AWL. I know I'm doing it kind of backwards, but if you look at my 1st graph AWL you'll see that it was kind of crazy.

Finally, do you have any advice on the amplification graph as far as the increments. It appears that when I was amplifying in single increments that I was finding differences down to 1/8 of an inch. The graph paper I'm using is the free one that Daggers has in his book. I'm not going to post my amplification graph since I think I did it incorrectly. I'll do it over AWR.

Thanks
Rick

[shadowlock]

Okay guys,

So, If you look at the 2 graphs above you'll notice 47-50 area looks like it might be a gate. So I did an amplification graph starting at 45-52 (not sure if I should have made it wider) but if you look at that graph I THINK the center or lowest point (not sure which is the correct term) of the gate is 50? Does that sound correct to you guys??? Did I miss or skip anything??? One last thing, since I was doing AWR I actually started at 52 and work my way back to 45.

Thanks,
Rick

[LockManipulator]

Your graphs really indicate a gate from 47.5-50 both yesterday and today. You should amplify a bit further. I would amplify from 45-52.5. You want to see where the gate starts and stops. Your red amplification graph shows the gate to start at 50. The gates on this is wide, wide enough to indicate at two points, 47.5 & 50, when going by 2.5 increments. If the gate starts at 50, and you don't know when it ends, then usually you should choose 49 as your number. Don't want to get too close to the edge, 49 will give you some room for dialing error. But looking at both graphs you did, 47.5 and 50 indicated which is a pretty wide gate. So factoring that in, 48.5 would be a better choice than 49. But the best thing to do is extend your amplification graph to see both the start and end of the gate and choose the middle of that. That will be the number in the combination.

Looking at the graph you did today, 31 (because I centered it with the LCP reading), 48, and 82 (80 on yesterday's graph, 85 on today's) all look like gates. I would just try dialing 31-82-48 and see if that works, remember to dial in each number with a right rotation. Do you know how? The way I came up with that combo is working on the principle of 3rd wheel usually reads first, the best indication would be the 3rd wheel; 48. You could also try 82-31-48. Also, if you tag the gate at 48 to a wheel, you don't have to make another graph. You can put that wheel on it's gate and test if 80 is a gate. I would isolate each remaining wheel and run them from 77.5-87.5 and see if there's a drop. If there is, then you have 2 number in the combination and the wheels they are on!

[shadowlock]

I think I understand. It's alot to absorb. Just a note. I wanted to do a high low test this morning but was only able to do a quick low test before I ran out of time and had to go to work. My lock is a cutaway. As I dialed in 50 I did observe that W1 and W3 gates were under the fence. i did not look at the cutaway part of the lock until I had already completed everything I was doing including all graphs. I did not have time to actually do the whole test but will do it for sure tonight if I can. I need to know what the CP's look like when you're in the right area.

Dialing in with only right rotation??? I'm not sure if I know what you're talking about. Is that covered in your book?? I am going step by step trying to follow the steps properly before moving on to next task. I might not have gotten to that part yet?

I did also notice #80 in the chart and will also amplify that number. Just no time this morning. Sounds Like a good idea. Is it common that multiple gates indicate on one wheel??? #30 did not really grab my attention, but then again I'm new so it might have escaped my eye.

And since it all started with AWR then should everything done from now til the end be done with AWR until combo is found???

As for isolating each wheel and amplify from 77.5-87.5 I'm not sure if I know how to do that.....Does the following sound correct?: AWR park wheels on 87.5 then work back to 77.5 then spin right to get W2 to move and park it on 87.5 and work my way back to 77.5 then spin back left moving W1 to 87.5 and work my way back to 77.5 thus isolating all 3 wheels??? Is this correct?

As I keep reading your response I'm starting to kind of understand what youre trying to say. So, from the initial graph we believe we have found a gate. Now we need to find the center of the gate since the gate may stretch over several numbers? and the center of the gate would give us a for sure number to the combo. We also try and find the edges of the gates as well to help us with the center. Is that correct?

Is there a standard set of numbers for amplifying a gate area? for example, in this case 47-50 is where we believe is a gate. So, pick 10 numbers on each side of that area to amplify or 5 numbers on each side, or.....?.....that's my question is there a standard set of numbers on each side when amplifying?


If I'm being a little redundant, sorry.

Rick

[Mikeh727]

Hi Rick,

Way to keep at it! Daggers hit some of the main points on your graphs and I pretty much agree with everything he said. The area around 80-85 (depending on which graph you're looking at) is the area that I think looks most like a gate, but that's really just a difference in interpretation. ALL of the areas that Daggers pointed out warrant a closer look.

I'll try to address some of your other issues.

I think I understand. It's alot to absorb. Just a note. I wanted to do a high low test this morning but was only able to do a quick low test before I ran out of time and had to go to work. My lock is a cutaway. As I dialed in 50 I did observe that W1 and W3 gates were under the fence. i did not look at the cutaway part of the lock until I had already completed everything I was doing including all graphs. I did not have time to actually do the whole test but will do it for sure tonight if I can. I need to know what the CP's look like when you're in the right area.

As you dialed in 50 where? On which wheel? With high/low testing you are testing one wheel at a time, so I'm wondering which two wheels you had at 50 and which you were placing at 40. You said that w1 AND w3 gates were both under the fence, so I assume that you had w2 on 40. I wouldn't expect both gates to be under the fence but it's possible. But that means your high low testing won't reveal which wheel 50 belongs to since it appears that it might be on TWO wheels. That's gonna screw things up.

Dialing in with only right rotation??? I'm not sure if I know what you're talking about. Is that covered in your book?? I am going step by step trying to follow the steps properly before moving on to next task. I might not have gotten to that part yet?

Dialing all of the numbers with a right (or left) rotation is a little tricky for a beginner, especially if your not yet comfortable with exactly how the wheels move. It's tricky for me still and I have to think about it as I'm doing it. The idea is that after you dial the first number with right rotation, you have to spin left to dial the second number. To get that number back to a right rotation, you have to spin left about 5 increments past your target number and stop the third time you hit that number. Then, spin back right and stop at your true number the third time you pass it. For the third number, you'll spin left about 5 increments past your target number and stop the second time, then spin back right past your true number and stop the second time. Now you've got all three wheels dialed in with right rotation.

Confused? Walk through the process using numbers like 50-60-70. You'll go right four times to 50. (Wheel 1 is done!) Left to 65 stopping the third time. Back right to 60, again stopping the third time. (Wheel 2 is done!) Then left to 75, stopping the second time, then back right to 70, stopping the second time. (Wheel 3 is done!)

Do that a few times and see if it becomes more clear.

I did also notice #80 in the chart and will also amplify that number. Just no time this morning. Sounds Like a good idea. Is it common that multiple gates indicate on one wheel??? #30 did not really grab my attention, but then again I'm new so it might have escaped my eye.

You will only have one gate per wheel, so you're not indicating two gates on one wheel. What I think you are asking is if it is common for two gates to indicate on one graph where you are testing all of the wheels at once. Yes it is possible and does happen so it could be that we're seeing more than one gate on one graph.

And since it all started with AWR then should everything done from now til the end be done with AWR until combo is found???

Nope. You started AWR which is fine. Some people start AWR, others start AWL. It's a personal preference and as you progress, you'll find advantages to doing it one way or the other. You'll develop your own technique. But in this case, what I would expect your next step will be after determining which wheel(s) you have a gate(s) on, you'll park that wheel or wheels on the gates that you found with right rotation and then use left rotation to continue the search. Why? Because it's easier to dial this way.

As for isolating each wheel and amplify from 77.5-87.5 I'm not sure if I know how to do that.....Does the following sound correct?: AWR park wheels on 87.5 then work back to 77.5 then spin right to get W2 to move and park it on 87.5 and work my way back to 77.5 then spin back left moving W1 to 87.5 and work my way back to 77.5 thus isolating all 3 wheels??? Is this correct?

Not exactly. W3 is the easiest to spin in isolation since it's the first wheel to be picked up. You can put w1 and w2 anywhere you want it and spin away with w3. But to isolate w2, you place w1 wherever you want it, then place w2 where you want to test, but you still have to place w3 somewhere, so you'll move w3, THEN go test. To continue testing on w2, you have to go back and pick up w3 first, then w2 and place w2 on the NEXT point you want to test, then move w3 out of the way again. So to isolate w2, you'll be continually dialing TWO numbers, placing w2 on your next test point and placing w3 somewhere else, such as a low spot, but always in the same place for consistency.

As I keep reading your response I'm starting to kind of understand what youre trying to say. So, from the initial graph we believe we have found a gate. Now we need to find the center of the gate since the gate may stretch over several numbers? and the center of the gate would give us a for sure number to the combo. We also try and find the edges of the gates as well to help us with the center. Is that correct?

In a nutshell, yep!

Is there a standard set of numbers for amplifying a gate area? for example, in this case 47-50 is where we believe is a gate. So, pick 10 numbers on each side of that area to amplify or 5 numbers on each side, or.....?.....that's my question is there a standard set of numbers on each side when amplifying?

Personal preference but I usually go about three numbers low and three numbers high. The gates aren't that wide, but then you can really define the edges of your gate.


Dude, you are asking some great questions! As I read through the questions and answers, I'm worried that you might get a bit overloaded. Some of the answers may seem complicated but really, they will all be clear to you in a very short period of time as you gain more experience with your locks. My first manipulation was measured in days, not hours or minutes, and I probably made my scalp bleed from scratching my head in frustration!

I'm telling you this because it's a process, and you will grow in leaps and bounds as you continue to practice. There will be bumps along the way, but it goes quickly.

I hope this all makes sense. Let us know if you have any other questions.

And for the rest of you following and/or responding to this thread, feel free to make any corrections to anything I've said that might be better explained a different way

Cheers!

-Mike

[shadowlock]

Mike,

Thanks for a the detailed responses. I have read them and will most likely read each one over and over again until I get it down. I feel almost like I know what you're talking about but not! LOL you know what I mean. I feel like I'm almost there. I'll keep at it until I get it done or have some kind of a nervous breakdown. Thanks to all that are guiding me along the way. I think I have enough responses from you guys to get me there. I just got home from work and am otw to my other job and so I might not get a chance to practice tonight, but I'll be on it tomorrow. I'll let you guys know.

Oh, and I got a second lock today from my lockie buddy this one is not a loaner, but a keeper. S&G dial with a Group 2 La Gard lock 1800 series. It was in pieces when I got it and the lockie put it together for me. Works ok but the dial gives a lot of resistance when spinning the dial. I told him and he removed the spline key and gave it one full revolution. Then it had too much slop in the dial so I asked him to put it back. It's an older lock but it works. They had the combo to it and I asked him to put it on a card for me and I put it in my wallet without looking. My next project.



Thanks again,
Rick

[LockManipulator]

Dialing in with only right rotation??? I'm not sure if I know what you're talking about. Is that covered in your book?? I am going step by step trying to follow the steps properly before moving on to next task. I might not have gotten to that part yet?

Let's say you want to dial 30-50-70 with right rotation. Dial 30 with right rotation. Turn left twice and pick up the second wheel and go PAST 50 by some numbers. I usually do 10 if I can. Then turn right twice and pick up both wheels again and put it on 50. Then turn left and pick up the third wheel and go past 70. Right rotation to pick up third wheel again and put it on 70.

Is it common that multiple gates indicate on one wheel???

Only if you have multiple gates on one wheel. My LaGard for instance has two gates on the third wheel. One is for the right combo and the other has a black piece of plastic that pushes a silent alarm when dialed to that number. This is so people with a gun to their head can open the safe and trigger the alarm without the bad guy knowing.

And since it all started with AWR then should everything done from now til the end be done with AWR until combo is found???

No, just the gates you found with right rotation have to be approached with right rotation. For instance, you can get an indication at 50 with AWL and when you do AWR, you can indicate at 47.5 and not 50. The gates are in different location depending on rotation. So the fact that you did AWR and have maybe 3 gate signatures, you want to approach each number with the same rotation you found them with.

As for isolating each wheel and amplify from 77.5-87.5 I'm not sure if I know how to do that.....Does the following sound correct?: AWR park wheels on 87.5 then work back to 77.5 then spin right to get W2 to move and park it on 87.5 and work my way back to 77.5 then spin back left moving W1 to 87.5 and work my way back to 77.5 thus isolating all 3 wheels??? Is this correct?

Shadowlock explained this pretty well. Just keep track of which wheels are where. If you move wheel 2 somewhere, wheel 3 will be in the same place unless you move it back.

As I keep reading your response I'm starting to kind of understand what youre trying to say. So, from the initial graph we believe we have found a gate. Now we need to find the center of the gate since the gate may stretch over several numbers? and the center of the gate would give us a for sure number to the combo. We also try and find the edges of the gates as well to help us with the center. Is that correct?

yep that's right. The center is also important because it gives more room for error such as when dialing and possibly if we got the center wrong.

Is there a standard set of numbers for amplifying a gate area? for example, in this case 47-50 is where we believe is a gate. So, pick 10 numbers on each side of that area to amplify or 5 numbers on each side, or.....?.....that's my question is there a standard set of numbers on each side when amplifying?

I just do it from the two points outside the gate. If the indications are 7.5 and 10, I amplify 5-12.5. For 30 and 32.5, I amplify 27.5-35.

Nice that you got the s&g! That will really help with learning to have multiple types of locks

[shadowlock]

Daggers

Thanks for all the great answers as well. I think I do understand now what you're talking about with the right rotation. It seems simple. All I'd have to do is write down how to do it in sequence and it's not that hard to do. I liked all of your answers and will put most of them to the test tonight and tomorow.

Thank you so much!!! I have enough answers and information to keep me busy for a few days now. I'll let you know what I come up with.

Rick