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[shadowlock]

Oldfast,


Hello All,

I Need some help. I'm stuck on graphing. Can you try and break it down a little for me. I guess I'm kind of a knucklehead. Having trouble with the whole process. I tried to make my first graph and all the RCP were the same? So that part of the graph came out like a straight line. The LCP looked to me to have slight variations in 1/4 increments but nothing major. I must be doing something wrong. Also, if I start out AWR and park all 3 wheels at 0 then spin left to find contact points which are L-7 1/4 and R-15 then back to 0 and move all wheels to 2/5 and back to contact points and then back to 2.5 and move wheels to 5 etc. what happens when I get to the contact points? Do I keep moving all wheels the same through the contact area?? Do I keep taking readings in the same manner? Also, Amplifying is the same as regular graphing except for you check 1 number at a time starting with 6 numbers on each side of the suspected target number, Correct?? My cutaway doesn't have 1/4 or 1/8 markings so I have to guess. Any suggestions?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks
Rick
Shadowlock

[LockManipulator]

The variations of 1/4 increment sound right. A gate usually won't show up with more than that. Though, it's usually on the right contact point not the left. As for your next question, when you get to the contact area, you keep moving through it. When in between the contact points, just spin around the other direction to take the reading for the other contact point. For example, AWR @ 10, take RCP normally, spin left to 8 but making sure not to go past 10 and take LCP. Yes, amplifying is just taking readings every increment. But I don't go as far as 6 away. If I get indications at 22.5 and 25, I amplify from 22-26. No lock has 1/8 increments lol but you can print out a verneer scale I believe it's called. It's something you put on the lock to break it down into 1/4 and 1/8 increments.

[Mikeh727]

Hi Rick,

Great to see you spinning this thing!

Hello All,

I Need some help. I'm stuck on graphing. Can you try and break it down a little for me. I guess I'm kind of a knucklehead. Having trouble with the whole process. I tried to make my first graph and all the RCP were the same? So that part of the graph came out like a straight line. The LCP looked to me to have slight variations in 1/4 increments but nothing major. I must be doing something wrong.

Not necessarily. Sometimes you don't get any indication when you spin around looking for a gate. Some gates will indicate going right, but not left. You just might have one of those locks. See what happens when you graph going the other way, but don't discard that graph as a failure. The two graphs together might reveal something. Daggers is right, usually the right contact point will indicate better than the left point with the type of lever you have on that cutaway.

Also, if I start out AWR and park all 3 wheels at 0 then spin left to find contact points which are L-7 1/4 and R-15 then back to 0 and move all wheels to 2/5 and back to contact points and then back to 2.5 and move wheels to 5 etc. what happens when I get to the contact points? Do I keep moving all wheels the same through the contact area?? Do I keep taking readings in the same manner?

A couple of things here. First, if you are moving AWR, your numbers would be getting smaller, not bigger. AWR would go from 0 to 97.5 to 95, etc. Maybe that was a typo but figured I should clear that up just in case since it's early in the game.

So let's say you are at 12.5 in your dialing. You are between the contact points. To take the right CP reading, you'll spin left just a couple of numbers to 15 and take your reading. To take the left reading, you'll continue to spin left all the way around to around 9 or 10, and then back up to where your left point will be and take that reading You need to be careful not to spin too far and hit 12.5 and mess up wheel three. Then, spin back to the right to take all wheels to 10, repeat.

If that's still not clear, I can make a quick video to show you.

Also, Amplifying is the same as regular graphing except for you check 1 number at a time starting with 6 numbers on each side of the suspected target number, Correct?? My cutaway doesn't have 1/4 or 1/8 markings so I have to guess. Any suggestions?

None of the dials have the 1/4 or 1/8 increments, or 1/2 for that matter as far as I know. This is where your eye, and eventually your experience, comes in. YOU have to decide what 1/8 looks like, and what 1/4 looks like. When I started, I used 1/4 increments since that was all I could really see in my mind. As I progressed, I now use 1/8 increments. Oldfast use increments of 1/10. That will come to you with more experience. The important thing is that you see a difference and record it. The fractions will come to you. You can use different tools to aid you with this such as a safety pin taped to the index or paper diamonds, anything that will help you see the differences in the dial.


Hope that helps Rick. Keep up the good work!

-Mike

[shadowlock]

All great information. Thanks!! I'm gonna keep at it for sure. I tend to get focused in on something and I won't give up until I win or I'm beat for sure. So, I'm gonna keep at it. Also, maybe I need to just stick with Dagger's book. I've been reading the LSS book and the National Locksmith guide, and Dagger's book. Although the theory is the same in all 3, some of the specific info has small variations on how to go about doing specific things. I"ll keep at it and let you know.

Mike, if it's not too much trouble for you to make a quick video to show me I'd be very grateful. Whenever you're not too busy.


Thanks to all of you for the help, I really want to accomplish this mission I'm on.

Rick
Shadowlock

[shadowlock]

Oh and Daggers....my lock doesn't have 1/4 increments either. Only Whole number marks. So if the indicator lands in between two whole numbers like my LCP does then I have to guess. I only mentioned 1/8 increments because in the LSS book it says that those small increments would give better indications. Thanks again.

[LockManipulator]

Oh and Daggers....my lock doesn't have 1/4 increments either. Only Whole number marks. So if the indicator lands in between two whole numbers like my LCP does then I have to guess. I only mentioned 1/8 increments because in the LSS book it says that those small increments would give better indications. Thanks again.

I measure in 1/8 increments as well, some locks only indicate at that scale. Don't guess though, make it consistent. Train your eye to recognize the difference between 3 5/8 and 3 6/8. Locks don't have 1/8 increments on the dial but you still measure by it. There's never a time you measure by full increments. It's hard and strains your eyes at first but with practice you'll be able to take fast, precise readings

[Oldfast]

Sorry I haven't been around much latley.... work :/

All good questions... and I see there's already PLENTY of helpful answers Gotta love it around here.

Not much left to say really. Just as others have mentioned; if you're bringing all wheels through the CA
an additional turn is required to get to the other side of the drive cam gate to take your other reading.

I will add one other thing though: When moving through the contact area....
You want to be aware of wheel 3's fly & how it interacts with the drive pin of the cam.
Thankfully you have a cut-away that should make it easy for you to see this & understand.

Take it and bring all wheels LEFT to somewhere within your contact area... lets say 10.
Now go RIGHT slowly and carefully watch. You'll see the drive cam pick up wheel 3's fly
at maybe around 20, but will not actually begin moving the wheel till about 10.

Sometimes it's necessary to move the fly out of the way prior to taking your reading.
Otherwise it's possible to confuse the initial contact of the drive pin & fly with the CP.
Honestly, I seldom find this to be much of an issue, and I wouldn't worry yourself
about this all too much... but it's something you should be aware of.

Keep in mind, you need not worry about this unless you're bring w3 through the CA.

[Mikeh727]

Rick,

Here's the video. My contact points are in different spots but I used your numbers to make it easier to follow. Hopefully



-Mike

[shadowlock]

Excellent Video Thank you very much. I'm trying it right now. I'll let you know how it goes.


Rick

[Oldfast]

If a picture is worth a thousand words... a vid must be like a million.

Kind of you to put that together Mike. Very helpful!

[Mikeh727]

If a picture is worth a thousand words... a vid must be like a million.

Kind of you to put that together Mike. Very helpful!

I'm just getting comfortable enough in my knowledge and skills to start to 'pay it forward'. Nearly everything I've learned about manipulation originated here with you and others. I feel like I can contribute a bit now instead of asking endless questions

Like you've said before, we spinners gotta stick together!

-Mike

[shadowlock]

Agreed all the way around! Rest assured I'll pass it on as well when I'm skilled enough.

Very kind Mike and also the rest of you.

Rick

[shadowlock]

Okay guys,

So, I completed one of my goals today. I made my first graph. Although it's only the first graph of the first number I wanted to run it by you guys and see if I should continue or go back to the beginning.

On the first one I did AWL to 0 and began in 2/5 increments. The end result as you can see is kind of crazy. I wasn't feeling too good about it. In Daggers' graph example in his article the number almost jumped off the graph at you. I'm not getting that feeling from this graph. SO,.....I decided to do something else.....

AWR to 0 then go 2.5 increments.....this graph has some potential (I think)....I'm looking at 47-50....dip in RCP and spike in LCP.....do you guys agree??? Am I heading in the right direction (excuse the play on words) or should I go back and start over?

I'll take any helpful criticism. Also both graphs say Graph #1 but you'll notice the awr and awl.

Thanks
Rick

[Oldfast]

Rick, the first thing I see when I look at your two graphs is..... PROGRESS!

On the second graph I can already see a more refined touch emerging in comparison to the first.

On your 1st graph (AWL): I'd agree with you, lol... it is a little "crazy".
Pursuing anything there would likely put you on a bit of a wild goose chase.

The 2nd graph (AWR): Yeah, I think there's a couple areas worthy of investigating.
Certainly the area you mentioned (47-50) looks like a possibility. Not only do both
right & left contact points coincide, but the width looks good and there's a drop on
either side. I'd amplify it (reading every increment) and see what you find.

I'd also take a look at 80. Though the left CP shows little, that's still a pretty
sharp drop on the right CP. Again, I'd say that area is worth amplifying.

It's always hard to say... but I'm think your hand (lightly approaching CP) & eye (judging divisions)
are probably still struggling. This is all new stuff you're throwing at it. As you continue you'll be very
surprised just how quickly you'll adapt though! You probably can't wait for that fence to drop in.....
but you might consider taking some time for an exercise that will give you some priceless information:
Do another AWR graph on a separate sheet (I know, I know... it takes awhile, lol). Then place it over
the top of your first one and hold it up to the window. You'll be able to see just how consistent you are.

p.s. Just so we're on the same page... this spin-session is with your cutaway? A LaGard?

[LockManipulator]

I agree with what Oldfast has said already and that 80 looks like a really good place to start. You have 3/4 of an increment drop! Also, I'd check to see what's up with 85 since on your AWL graph it drops pretty sharply there. It might be the same gate; they show up in different positions on each graph because of rotational conversion. The gate could be 83 with left rotation but 81 with right rotation.